Destroying capitalism could likewise be thought of as "really the point." But I'm not interested in fantasies — Xtrix
Renewable energy is sustainable. — Xtrix
I'm speaking about the US, of course -- but it's true elsewhere as well. — Xtrix
What is true in the US is not necessarily true elsewhere — Olivier5
even the optimists don't believe it will happen — Benkei
Doing things individually, like installing solar panels, heat pumps, electrifying one's home (stoves, water, etc) and buying other electric things (like lawnmowers) would be helpful too. All very cost effective. E-bikes are great if you live close to your job or supermarket. Electric cars are a good choice too, but still probably too expensive for people -- and we should be pushing more for public transit anyway. — Xtrix
Building strong unions — Xtrix
Doing things individually, like installing solar panels, heat pumps, electrifying one's home (stoves, water, etc) and buying other electric things (like lawnmowers) would be helpful too. — Xtrix
I really understand their anger. The farmers are also angry because they say, ‘we are the only sector who get all the blame.’ What about industry? What about the traffic? Maybe we should just ban all the cars in the Netherlands because they also emit nitrogen. This plan as announced in practice means that, in certain areas, farmers have to reduce their nitrogen emissions by 70%. That means they simply have to quit. — Marcel Crok
This is literally communism. If the state says, ‘we are going to take your private property away for the sake of a greater good,’ then the state has the prerogative to create crises to strip you of your rights. That's what's happening here. This will definitely affect ordinary civilians. It's part of a global agenda, so everyone around the world, especially Western countries, should be aware that this is something that is not just about the Dutch government. This is part of the ‘2030 agenda,’ this is part of the ‘great reset.’ — Eva Vlaardingerbroek
It is not very rational to curb the Dutch agriculture if you realize that they have the highest production per acre in the world and therefore the environmental load per kilogram food is lower than elsewhere. So, in a sense Dutch agriculture is a benefit for climate as well as biodiversity. — Simon Rozendaal
Similar protests could soon happen in the U.K. and parts of the European Union where natural gas and energy costs are near historic levels.
The issue is that despite this growing energy crisis in Europe, some governments still prioritize the climate agenda which makes energy ever more expensive, or which forces farmers to close their farms because that is the top priority, still, for a number of governments. This whole green agenda is causing huge burdens.
The Dutch are driven mad by these policies because it's killing their businesses and the farmers are fighting back big time.
This is what's going to happen all over Europe. I have no doubt that, come winter and millions of families can't heat their homes or pay their bills anymore, that there will be unrest all over Europe. — Benny Peiser
All we had to do to prevent climate change was to follow Aristotle's advice: aureum mediocritas (the golden mean) or nec quid nimis (nothin' to excess). These simple rules, if followed in the right way, would have worked like a charm - no wars, no global warming, no poverty, no nothin'!
Unfortunately our (human) nature got in the way - we drink until we pass out, we eat until we die of heart ailments, we drive past the speed limit and die in a collision, you get the idea.
Climate change in my humble opinion is nothing more than a manifestation of very human flaws — Agent Smith
Just saying it as I see it... Many Americans are only discovering the problem now, and they are unaware of the fact that the US has had an oversized contribution to this problem. — Olivier5
Wrong. Not at current energy use levels. — Benkei
It doesn't happen often because it is in fact very difficult for any large group to unite in solidarity around radical change and a plan's execution. It also doesn't happen often because the elite is well defended--not just by guns, but by propaganda machines. — Bitter Crank
That's precisely what's needed — Benkei
It seems to me that this gets "recognized" over and over again on this forum and in this thread.
The situation is hopeless in terms of the damages already done ... which most people are unaware of.
The situation is also hopeless in terms of avoiding significant further damages that are simply now physically unavoidable.
We are currently in a global famine, caused by climate change and socio-political disruptions arguably themselves also related to climate change not helping stability as well as direct resource competition.
— Xtrix
I don't see much recognition of real actions and solutions. The underlying message is: it's hopeless. I don't see how anyone can read these comments and not have that be the takeaway. — Xtrix
The only ones denying the horrors of climate change are climate deniers.
I'm not claiming anything said is false, I'm questioning the emphasis. Yes, we should have acted -- yes, it's bad right now and will get worse -- yes, it's a very hard path ahead.
That being said, let's move on. Dwelling on it does no good, and in fact can have the opposite effect -- i.e., of retarding action. — Xtrix
Otherwise I could give a rundown of possible governmental actions that would be very useful. But we have less control over those things. I suggest instead to focus on local energy commissions, city councils, budget commissions, town councils, local and regional utility companies, etc. Bring it to the state and local level, since the federal government has been crippled. I'm speaking about the US, of course -- but it's true elsewhere as well. — Xtrix
What is true in the US is not necessarily true elsewhere. The climate Armageddon was literally made in the USA. It is because of the constant opposition of your country, your politicians and media, including those pretending to be "democrat", that the whole world is now doomed. You own this one. For three decades now, you guys did everything in your vast power to frustrate the efforts of those trying to address the issue, and you consume 3 or 4 times more carbon by person than Europeans do, on average. — Olivier5
So by all means, do do something! Better late than never. Do unionize for instance, although we in Europe have had labor unions for a long while, and they don't do much that I can see against climate change... — Olivier5
Doing things individually, like installing solar panels, heat pumps, electrifying one's home (stoves, water, etc) and buying other electric things (like lawnmowers) would be helpful too. All very cost effective. E-bikes are great if you live close to your job or supermarket. Electric cars are a good choice too, but still probably too expensive for people -- and we should be pushing more for public transit anyway.
— Xtrix
All aimed at maintaining current wealth levels. — Benkei
Fuck cars and the idea that individual transportation should be a thing. Prohibit them in cities and large towns and invest in public transportation. — Benkei
Lawnmowers? You can mow by hand, which also require a lot less maintenance as they rarely break down. — Benkei
Heat pumps are useless in badly isolated houses. What are the Rc requirements in the US in Wisconsin for instance? Is there a maximum in energy use defined per square or cubic meter? Even in the Netherlands isolation helps more than installing heat pumps, which in any case should be coupled with solar panels to be effective. — Benkei
Building strong unions
— Xtrix
But we haven't, so the problem doesn't seem to be with the idea. The problem seems to be with whatever is in the way. — Isaac
Again, we haven't. So the idea doesn't seem to be the problem rather than whatever is in the way. — Isaac
People already know and are not doing it.
The problem runs far deeper than just consumer choices or unionism. It's about the people we've become. — Isaac
What you seem to take issue with is, again without disagreeing, my laying out the reality in blunt terms (as I see it). — boethius
Yes, I agree we are only really debating emphasis. — boethius
It's not that you're wrong in what you point out, it's that it can be a preventative to much-needed action -- it encourages despair and apathy. — Xtrix
Yes, at current levels. The current problem is scale.
As the population grows and more energy — specifically, electricity and the materials needed to make solar panels, batteries, wires, etc.— is demanded, that will be a problem. No one is denying that.
That’s a different issue from lowering emissions, which is the driver of climate change— the issue at hand. — Xtrix
It has nothing to do with wealth. Maintaining the same standards of living, yes. Which, it's true, is excessive, wasteful, and overly comfortable in the US. That needs to change.
In the meantime, electrifying these things is good and will bring emissions down. They're not at all exhaustive. — Xtrix
But we have. We're currently in the middle of a surge, in fact. At least in the US. — Xtrix
Lots of propaganda against unions. — Xtrix
The fact that something hasn't happened (which is somewhat untrue) means that the problem is with the "idea"? Says who? — Xtrix
There's no way to move to renewables at current energy usage levels. Energy networks can deal with at most a 10-15% shift in energy production, anything beyond that and you get black outs. Renewables will cause much larger shifts and we don't have adequate battery technology to store the necessary energy to fill in the gaps. (That's not to say there aren't hopeful developments in this area). — Benkei
However, I don't think for Europe and US a voluntary de-growth is now feasible, but it will happen involuntarily. President of the EU telling member states to cut gas consumption by 15% is already manifestation of that process. — boethius
Mostly true, but irrelevant to what I was talking about -- as quoted above. The solutions I mentioned mostly apply where people/governments want to decarbonize -- not 100% everywhere, but it generalizes well enough. — Xtrix
Without strikes, or the threat of strikes, nothing will happen. So if European unions aren't doing that, then yes -- what's the point? — Xtrix
The point of labour unions is to defend their membership in collective bargaining with capitalists. It is not to save the human race. A coal miners union will defend the use of coal. There is no reason to believe that labor unions will help reduce global warming. — Olivier5
At the very least with regards to the legislation Manchin just killed, it seemed like union workers were pretty excited about the bill, in particular for it's legislation to help the miners transition to new cleaner jobs on the coalfields they used to work on: Coal miners want Joe Manchin to reverse opposition to Build Back Better. — Mr Bee
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