I think it is important when some people appear to be arguing against a distinction between facts and statements that represent facts. — Luke
"Snow is white" is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, and so while "snow is white" represents a fact, it is not a fact.
That snow is white is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, and so while that snow is white represents a fact, it is not a fact.
There are only variables that can be substituted for English sentences... — Moliere
If being true means being consistent with fact, then a true statement is consistent with fact, where "fact" is what has occurred. True statements are not facts. To quite the contrary, true statements are so, only if, only when, and only because they are consistent with fact. — creativesoul
Sure. — Banno
I'd say they are both facts because they are both true statements, and facts are true statements. — Moliere
Yep. — Banno
This is interesting because the other theories don't seem to present a logic, so much, as a description of truth (hence, substantive) -- but they certainly presume a logic at least. I don't think I would describe the correspondence theory of truth as a logic. I'd say it's a metaphysical description of truth. — Moliere
And then... — creativesoul
If being true means being consistent with fact, then a true statement is consistent with fact, where "fact" is what has occurred. True statements are not facts. To quite the contrary, true statements are so, only if, only when, and only because they are consistent with fact. — creativesoul
The reassurance was directed at the etymology. — Banno
You mean that "snow is white" is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, like that snow is white, and so while "snow is white" represents a fact, it is not a fact? — Banno
Isn't that what I have been arguing? — Banno
"The cat is on the mat" is true ≡ The cat is on the mat
The thing on the right is a fact.
[...]
Now, where in any of this does a sentence correspond to a fact?
What might that correspondence be? — Banno
but only one of us was capable of discussing coherently. — bongo fury
I.
"Snow is white" is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, and so while "snow is white" represents a fact, it is not a fact.
II.
That snow is white is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, and so while that snow is white represents a fact, it is not a fact. — Banno
Well, P is not the way the world is. "The way the world is" is part of the metaphysical picture of truth that I posited. In the metaphysical picture you have representation on the left-hand-side, and represented on the right-hand side. — Moliere
But in the logic you have the mention-operator, variables, the copula, T, and the domain for P (I said sentences, but I should say statements) — Moliere
Note that in the logic there is no way the world is or isn't or anything. There are only variables that can be substituted for English sentences. (I would accept other natural languages as well, just using English since we're using English) -- that is, this is stripped of the metaphysical baggage. Instead we have a logic with a formula and defined operators and domains, and then we fill in what the predicate T means based on the meanings of English (that you and I already know). — Moliere
I believe the way most of us have been using the word "fact" here is to mean a thing that exists in the world, a state of affairs in the world, or a way a part of the world is at some time.
— Luke
This is not quite the same as saying a fact is a true statement. "Most of us" would do well to look at a broader range of examples. — Banno
Seems to me to be a refinement of language over time. — Banno
I think it is important when some people appear to be arguing against a distinction between facts and statements that represent facts.
— Luke
Who, me? — Banno
You mean that "snow is white" is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, like that snow is white, and so while "snow is white" represents a fact, it is not a fact?
Isn't that what I have been arguing? — Banno
"The cat is on the mat" is true ≡ The cat is on the mat
The thing on the right is a fact.
[...]
Now, where in any of this does a sentence correspond to a fact? — Banno
Are you saying "The cat is on the mat" is not a sentence? — Luke
I.
"Snow is white" is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, and so while "snow is white" represents a fact, it is not a fact.
II.
That snow is white is not a fact, because facts are things in the world, and so while that snow is white represents a fact, it is not a fact. — Banno
Am I wrong? — Banno
That would be basic correspondence theory, yes. My picture 1. — bongo fury
that Tarski's analysis informs our use of "true" in natural languages. — Banno
And what of (II)? — Banno
Am I wrong?
— Banno
Yes. — bongo fury
(II) is nonsense. — bongo fury
Address the other. — bongo fury
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