A 'New' Bill of Rights

Marvin Katz

Many here would agree that people should have the right to a good education.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt,, [FDR], proposed in 1944 some other rights that he believed were basic. He called it “a new Bill of Rights.” (Perhaps FDR was influenced by a platform set forth in 1912 by his cousin, former President Theodore Roosevelt.)
As you may know, FDR was the most-popular president in U.S. history. He was elected for four terms!
A summary of the rights FDR seriously-proposed in what he spoke of as a second “new Bill of Rights” - as interpreted by Patrick J. Austin, are listed as follows:

The right to work, under “just and favorable conditions,”
with the right to form and join trade unions.
The right to social security, including social insurance.
The right to a family life, including paid parental leave and the
protection of children.

The right to an adequate standard of living, including
adequate food, clothing and housing, and the “continuous
improvement of living conditions.”
The right to health, specifically the highest attainable
standard of physical and mental health.

The right to an education, including free universal primary
education, generally available secondary education and
equally accessible higher education. The government can make college education free.
The right to participation in cultural life.
You may wonder, why do I bring this up at this time?

It seems to me that every person interested in Political Theory may find a definition of “good government” to be of relevance. I learned this from my teacher and colleague,the brilliant philosopher, Robert S. Hartman.
When Ethics is applied to Political Theory this definition is obtained:

A good government is one that continuously improves the quality-of-life of its citizens.

Currently, in the year 2022, one of the major political parties is devoted to that and is doing that; the other offers hate, fear, and division. As a supplement to the first Bill of Rights – located early in a document that begins with the words “We the people, in order to form a more perfect union” – is suggested by FDR a year before he died and thus did ot have time to arrange for his new Bill of Rights be made into legislation. Google his eight points; check it out. I reprinted the gist of them above to provide ideas as how to upgrade and improve the quality of life for inhabitants of the United States in the future. …Just some ideas upon which to reflect, and eventually put into action, in case any of you want to advocate these, or campaign for these, or run for office and thus be in a position to implement any of these human rights.

How do you feel about this? Any comments or questions? Any constructive ideas to make the concepts more of a reality?

Bret Bernhoft

A good government is one that continuously improves the quality-of-life of its citizens. — Marvin Katz

IMO, a "good government" is one that enables its citizens to improve their own quality of life, as well as the lives of those around them; in a sort of volunteerism sense. A "good government" is not in charge of that process, but ensures that the ability to self-actualize is protected, made possible and sacred.

I personally agree with the sentiment(s) of your post. But I'd like to see more of a focus on encouraging individuals to create their own realities, for themselves. That is (in my estimation) what a "good government" is empowered to do.

gloaming

These aren't rights per se. They're concepts that many subscribe to, and if enough citizens in a 'democracy' vote to have, and to sustain them, then....that will be that. A right only exists when at least two people agree that the right applies to at least one of the two, but usually to both of them, and then only if they are willing to defend their rights to the extent of their deaths. IOW, I see rights as 'interests'. People conflict over interests such as resources, energy, choice of mates, and the like.

So, all the rights listed are not really rights, they're agreements between at least two people who agree that they should have what the 'rights' proffer. They're expressions of want, often of need, but there is nothing in nature that suggests humans should have these rights any more than any of the flora and fauna do.

Governments ought to do what their citizens want them to do. If that is to secure rights, then the government should do that. If that is to go to war, then so be it. If the government is intended by its voters to provide education, free or not-so-free, then they should do that. If the government must take revenue to provide services, and since they can't tax the Russians or the English, they'll tax you. However, governments have a way of accruing power, mostly through the control of armies, natural resources, legislation, and taxes. They naturally grow because their citizens keep asking them to do more for the sake of personal 'rights' and security, which usually means that the government needs more information, not only about nefarious individuals but also about you. This is often a mistake because eventually the government begins to tell you what is and isn't yours to do, to acquire, and to sustain.

Remember, the government is for you, and should do what you want it to do. Nowadays, it's the other way around. Governments sustain themselves more than they sustain, champion, or build up the individuals they govern.

Alkis Piskas

↪Marvin Katz

Nice topic and presentation. :up:

A good government is one that continuously improves the quality-of-life of its citizens. — Marvin Katz

Please tell me which country has such a government and I'm going to live there! :grin:

(I don't know what country do you live in, but in Greece, where I live, the quality-of-life of the citizens is the last thing our politicians think these days. They can hardly think even about the life of the citizens, in general! The only country that I know and I about which I can say they it is near to the above "utopia", is Sweden. But it was a long time ago. I don't know if this still holds toray.)

Agent Smith

Greece — Alkis Piskas

What happened to Greece? It was doing so well - the epicenter of philosophy, culture, art, and so on - and now it's the sick man of Europe. :snicker:

Time to pull up your socks you Greeks! Restore your past glory! Reclaim the title of world leader! Go Greece, go!

NOS4A2

↪Marvin Katz

Anyone who believes people have a right to such things ought to start providing them immediately. You’re violating someone’s rights when you don’t. Personally I don’t think anyone owes anyone else a living, so do not see them as rights, and especially as rights worthy of government protection.

Marvin Katz

IMO, a "good government" is one that enables its citizens to improve their own quality of life, as well as the lives of those around them; in a sort of volunteerism sense. — Bret Bernhoft

Thank you very much, Bret, for your fine contribution! What you are suggesting is actually more Applied Ethics!! You are talking about people helping people. This is Ethics. The reasons for my saying this are made evident in these papers (or booklets) which spells out in more detail what I mean. Check i t out. Read them over:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/THE%20STRUCTURE%20OF%20ETHICS.pdf

Also, more background for the new paradigm for ethics is found here. q.v.
BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach (2014)
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BASIC%20ETHICS.pdf and also here:

LIVING WELL: How Ethics helps us flourish (2015) – 23pp.
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LIVING%20WELL-How%20ethics%20helps%20us%20flourish.pdf

In your response you have in a constructive way improved upon what I was attempting to convey. You are emphasizing the moral concept Autonomy, something which is also done in that very-brief last chapter of BASIC ETHICS.
So thanks again for your insight.

javi2541997

↪Alkis Piskas

I don't know what country do you live in, but in Greece, where I live, the quality-of-life of the citizens is the last thing our politicians think these days.

I know how you feel Mediterranean brother. Here in Spain we live exactly the same situation.

I only see politics as a complex ownership. Most of the people who reach powerful positions - such as a ministry - are there for private issues and affairs. I am laughing right now because the PM of my country just approved five laws and he said: more laws for the majority!... Jesus. I want to ask him what is the "majority" according to his reality.

Agent Smith

I only see politics as a complex ownership. Most of the people who reach powerful positions - such as a ministry - are there for private issues and affairs. — javi2541997

Government jobs: Make yourself rich by any and all means available, legal and illegal. While you're at it ... can you also please build hospitals, schools, roads, etc. :snicker:

javi2541997

↪Agent Smith

Government jobs: Make yourself rich by any and all means available, legal and illegal. While you're at it ,,, can you also please build hospitals, schools, roads, etc

I couldn't have explained it better... That's how politicians work and interact with the citizenship.

Agent Smith

I couldn't have explained it better... That's how politicians work and interact with the citizenship. — javi2541997

Radix omnium malorum est cupiditas. Sorry folks, it is what it is!

Marvin Katz

Remember, the government is for you, and should do what you want it to do — gloaming

True. We agree on that. That is why I advocate that an administration ought to systematically inquire and learn, and publicize, what the democratic consensus is among its constituents! Let's find out what the people really want -- and let's insist that if it's ethical and moral the government is to provide it.

The U.S. Constitution, our guiding document here in the USA, claims that we have rights: the Right to a free press, the right to freedom of Assembly, to petition, and to protest. Etc. If you want to speak of our Rights as "interests," that's okay with me -- as long as we know, and are aware, that we are to pursue our true self-interest. What that is one will find spelled out in the manuscripts to which links are offered in my response to Bret B. See those writings cited.

We are, I would argue, part of the fauna. ...Perhaps we are the funniest of all.. [Unfortunately, some are human preditors. In 2016, one of those was elected tto the highest office. In another discussion here at the Forum, on theory of Ethics, I described how to recognize such bad characters, and distinguish them from those of good character.]
It turns out that what people really want is a Quality Life. What that entails, what it means in detail, is spelled out in the STRUCTURE OF ETHICS document, which see. A safe-to-open link to a pdf document is available. See the link in my reply to Bert.

Alkis Piskas

It was doing so well - the epicenter of philosophy, culture, art, and so on - and now it's the sick man of Europe — Agent Smith

Roman Empire occuppation, followed by 400 years occupation and under the Ottoman yoke. Greece was living in a Middle Eastern kind of culture, when Europe was enjoying Renaissance and then Enlightenment, with artistic creation, in every field, reaching at its peak!
This is what happened to Greece.

But still, after Greece's libaration from the Ottomans, there has been a long period of considerable cultural development, with very distinguihed politicians and men of letters. Distinguihed people from Europe helped a lot in that. Aalso, the Royal Regiment that was established always maintained the quality of life to a notable level; they really cared about Greece and the Greeks. Then, there was a 7-year junta regime that has been responsible for a steep cultural downfall of the country, mainly because of the strict censorship it imposed and its total lack of cultural standards and esp. the artistic ones. And after that the Royal Regiment was abolished and things started to go downhill, esp. in the political field.

Alkis Piskas

Here in Spain we live exactly the same situation. — javi2541997

Well, I'm not surprised. So many years under Franco ... At least you still have your Royal family. I don't know however if that helps and how much. For us it helped a lot!

I only see politics as a complex owners. Most of the people who reach powerful positions - such as a ministry - are there for private issues and affairs. — javi2541997

Exactly. This is what they are really good at.

Democracy here is an illusion. The only say in the affairs that citizens have is their vote, deciding between totally incompetent parties. This cannot be called Democracy. Democracy alss involves referendums on important matters for the country. The last referendum we had in Greece was in 1974, about keeping or abolishing the Royal Regime!! And, as a really stupid, low-IQ country, we selected the second option!

more laws for the majority" — javi2541997

I don't know even what does that mean! :grin:

javi2541997

I don't know however if that helps and how much. For us it helped a lot! — Alkis Piskas

Yes, at least the Royal family achieve stability. No more civil wars because the king the chief of the Army. There are some sectors of society who are not happy to live in a monarchy. But they are not big enough.

The last referendum we had in Greece was in 1974, about keeping or abolishing the Royal Regime!! And, as a really stupid, low-IQ country, we selected the second option! — Alkis Piskas

Yes, same. Our last referendum was in 1978 when the Spaniards voted for "democracy" but we never had the opportunity to vote about joining NATO or European monetary system. I even think that our national chambers do not matter at all because the European Commission and the European Central Bank have a lot of power in our domestic issues.
Well, it is a complex world and our nations clearly lost sovereignty when they joined European Union.

Bret Bernhoft

↪Marvin Katz

Thank you for the links. I have downloaded "The Structure Of Ethics" PDF, and will read through it now. I am definitely open to learning more about this line of thinking. So, I appreciate your guidance on doing just that.

Agent Smith

Roman Empire occuppation, followed by 400 years occupation and under the Ottoman yoke. Greece was living in a Middle Eastern kind of culture, when Europe was enjoying Renaissance and then Enlightenment, with artistic creation, in every field, reaching at its peak!
This is what happened to Greece.

But still, after Greece's libaration from the Ottomans, there has been a long period of considerable cultural development, with very distinguihed politicians and men of letters. Distinguihed people from Europe helped a lot in that. Aalso, the Royal Regiment that was established always maintained the quality of life to a notable level; they really cared about Greece and the Greeks. Then, there was a 7-year junta regime that has been responsible for a steep cultural downfall of the country, mainly because of the strict censorship it imposed and its total lack of cultural standards and esp. the artistic ones. And after that the Royal Regiment was abolished and things started to go downhill, esp. in the political field. — Alkis Piskas

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope Greece isn't damaged beyond repair and also maybe its time to pass on the torch to Europe and the US. Greece takes a well-deserved holiday, they've done enough for humanity. :smile:

Alkis Piskas

we never had the opportunity to vote about joining NATO or European monetary system. — javi2541997

Exactly. These are very important matters for a country, esp. because they refer to more or less permanent situations.
When I was a student in Switzerland, I was present to two referendums: 1) If people wanted to pay tolls for the maintenance of a new highway or accept an increase in gasoline and 2) Whether people wanted foreigners to stay in the country or not. This is what I can call "Democracy". People deciding on important matters of their country.

In ancient Greece, Athenians who retained political rights participated in important decisions of the city-state of Athens:
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9e75a9bc2c577702e46eeb1d0077a35e.jpg?format=1500w

The word "Democracy" comes from Greek "Democratia", from demos (= commune) + kratein (= govern, reign). People govern. That's why Greece has been known as the cradle of Democracy.

it is a complex world and our nations clearly lost sovereignty when they joined European Union — javi2541997

I don't know what the consequences were for you of the transition from pesetas to euros. For us, they were quite bad. For a very long time, people could not realize the value of one euro and think in terms of the new currency because the old currency, drachma, equaled 1/340 = 0.003 euros! But I guess the same happened to other countries with a similar old-currency-to-euro rate.

Alkis Piskas

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope Greece isn't damaged beyond repair and also maybe its time to pass on the torch to Europe and the US. Greece takes a well-deserved holiday, they've done enough for humanity — Agent Smith

Thanks for your concern. Indeed, Greece is a holiday place. It always has been. but that's all it is today. Yet, this is for tourists to enjoy, not the Greeks themselves. They do not even enjoy the money coming in from tourism ...
As for the "torch", I'm afraid it has already been passed to Europe and the US since a long time ago!

universeness

↪Marvin Katz

FDR in his presidential role was only playing catch-up with humanists/socialists. There is no example of 'new,' in any of the suggestions put forward in the OP as concepts of what basic 'human rights' should be. These were all implied by very ancient ideas such as justice and equality. People have been fighting and dying for such human rights since homo sapiens discovered that working together was more beneficial than competing for every resource, with every other individual homo sapien alive, and every other creature alive for that matter. The problem is that the Darwinian rules of evolution compel many people to gather as much as they can for themselves and their loved ones, protect all they have with every means of defence they can muster, and threaten all 'outsiders' with extreme violence if they come too close or become a perceived threat.
This 'selfish gene' type behaviour has resulted in the few obtaining full control over the majority of resources available. That makes the few feel secure and protected and they like that very much. If they had to share so that the majority could live better lives then they would not feel as secure and protected and 'chosen' as they do and they don't like that prospect.
That's why they are quite willing to kill so called humanists/socialists in their millions, like they have done in history. BUT, they will eventually understand that we left the jungle rules behind us a long time ago and they don't have to act purely based on their base, Darwinian, survival instincts and their primal fears. They will understand and accept the imperative of a more equitable society eventually as the majority will eventually succeed in making them understand.

Agent Smith

Thanks for your concern. Indeed, Greece is a holiday place. It always has been. but that's all it is today. Yet, this is for tourists to enjoy, not the Greeks themselves. They do not even enjoy the money coming in from tourism ...
As for the "torch", I'm afraid it has already been passed to Europe and the US since a long time ago! — Alkis Piskas

I must pray ... for humanity as there's literally nothing else I can do. :grin:

Alkis Piskas

↪Agent Smith

Pray on my behalf too, because I don't use to pray myself. :smile:

Agent Smith

Pray on my behalf too, because I don't use to pray myself. :smile: — Alkis Piskas

Dear Lord,

Please bless Greece and her people. Amen!

:pray: :pray: :pray:

Agent Smith & Alkis Piskas

javi2541997

This is what I can call "Democracy". People deciding on important matters of their country. — Alkis Piskas

Yes, completely agree. Democracy really works when the citizens are allowed to take part in important decisions.

I don't know what the consequences were for you of the transition from pesetas to euros. For us, they were quite bad. For a very long time, people could not realize the value of one euro and think in terms of the new currency because the old currency, drachma, equaled 1/340 = 0.003 euros! But I guess the same happened to other countries with a similar old-currency-to-euro rate. — Alkis Piskas

The consequences are pretty bad too. Here happened similar because 1 € equals to 166.6 pesetas. So yes the people got confused at the beginning.
To be honest I personally think that in economical affairs only Germany really got a big win inside eurosystem. We are different nations and we see the economy in different ways. For example your country and mine tend to depend a lot on tourism and food products. But Germany is pure industry so does wins a lot of benefits in the modern era. The Euro is made just for those countries not the Mediterranean fellas

Alkis Piskas

↪Agent Smith

Thanks.

Agent Smith

↪Alkis Piskas

:up:

Alkis Piskas

I personally think that in economical affairs only Germany really got a big win inside eurosystem. — javi2541997

It's always Germany that wins. The West left --if not helped-- the ex-nazi, criminal and enemy of the World country become the most powerful county in Europe! How intelligent is that?

The Euro is made just for those countries not the Mediterranean fellas — javi2541997

Certainly. Congrats to Danes and Swedes who escaped the euro trap!

javi2541997

Congrats to Danes and Swedes who escaped the euro trap! — Alkis Piskas

Agreed. I am jealous of Nordics. They have a very profitable monetary system. They do not depend on euro and their currency is good. I think the UK has always been clever in this context. They kept the Pound even when they were part of the European Union.

universeness

William Cowper(1731-1800) was almost correct in his hymm 'God Works In Mysterious Ways His Wonders to Peform.'
He should have wrote: 'Money works in horrific ways its evils to perform.'

Alkis Piskas

I think the UK has always been clever in this context. They kept the Pound even when they were part of the European Union. — javi2541997

That was really clever indeed. I just saw that GBP to EUR ratio has a raising trend since 2020 (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1034391/monthly-exchange-rate-gbp-eur-worldwide/)

Not that this has anything to do with the topic! :grin:
I suppose we should not extend this off-topic subject anymore ...

Alkis Piskas

)

↪javi2541997

I found something quite interesting regarding referendums in Europe:
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2022/729358/EPRS_IDA(2022)729358_EN.pdf
I have extracted the table showing the number of referendums and constitutional provisions performed in European countries (1957-2016):

Source: Cheneval F., Ferrin M., (2018) Referendums in the European Union: Defective by birth?, Journal of Common Market Studies, Volume 56, Number 5. pp. 1178-1194.

Would you believe that Belgium and Germany have not carried out a single referendum in the last 60 years?

On the other hand, check Denmark and Ireland. Also Non-EU Issues for Latvia, Lithuania and Sweden. all northern countries! There must be some correlation there ...

BTW, there was another referendum carried out in Greece, in 2015, to decide whether Greece should accept the bailout conditions in the country's government-debt crisis proposed jointly by the European Commission. Well, 61% of the Greeks voted against. Yet, nothing changed ... The bailout conditions were accepted nevertheless!! So, this proved to be a useless referendum!

(Lack of) Democracy reigns in in Europe!

A 'New' Bill of Rights

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