If virtue = goodness, then wouldn’t that mean that a good act is also a virtuous act ? Or do you think that virtue is not equal to goodness ? — Hello Human

The virtuous act is good, but virtue does not equal goodness. What is good is not limited to what is virtuous.

Yes, but goodness may not lie at all in the consequences in actuality. I think goodness lies only in the action and in the virtue, so the consequences are neither good nor bad, because it seems to me that the domain of morality is human action, as it’s the only thing under our direct control. — Hello Human

The good, according to Plato and Aristotle, is what we all seek. We do not, however, always agree on what the good is. In distinction from others, the philosopher seeks the good in the sense of inquiry into the question of what the good is.

Although we cannot control the consequences of our actions, we are not indifferent to them, they matter.

Ok I see, but I don’t see how this ties into the issue of whether virtue is equal to wisdom. — Hello Human

See above:

The Greek term translated as virtue is arete. It means the excellence of a thing. Human excellence is the realization of human potential. Someone who has attained human excellence is wise. — Fooloso4

Does it matter what they thought ? — Hello Human

That depends. If we are to understand Socrates claim then it does. If we are to take the claim on its own in light of whatever it is we think virtue and wisdom are then perhaps not, unless we are open to the possibility that they may have something to teach us about these things.

If virtue were equal to goodness, they would not have two words with non-congruent meaning for the same idea.

As it is, "virtuous" means either celibate, or playing good on the violin, and "good" means something nobody can define but we all understand what it is.

What is good is not limited to what is virtuous. — Fooloso4

What then are those other good things other than virtue ? And what is it that makes something good ?

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The good, according to Plato and Aristotle, is what we all seek. We do not, however, always agree on what the good is. In distinction from others, the philosopher seeks the good in the sense of inquiry into the question of what the good is. — Fooloso4

Ok I see.

Although we cannot control the consequences of our actions, we are not indifferent to them, they matter. — Fooloso4

Yes, we shouldn’t be indifferent to them, but I think that doesn’t mean that they can be good or bad, it means that we have to consider them when making a decision, but what is good or bad, in the end, is the action we take.

The Greek term translated as virtue is arete. It means the excellence of a thing. Human excellence is the realization of human potential. Someone who has attained human excellence is wise. — Fooloso4

So if I understand well, you think that to be wise is to have realized human excellence, and that to be wise is to have achieved some equilibrium of the soul ?

I think it depends on who uses the words. Someone who thinks that virtue is equal to good would mean the same thing by both words, while someone else would mean that good is a word to define, and virtue is an idea that may or may not be the exact definition of good. Someone else may think that good is the fulfillment of one’s purpose and that virtue is the means for achieving it.

Yes, we shouldn’t be indifferent to them, but I think that doesn’t mean that they can be good or bad, it means that we have to consider them when making a decision, but what is good or bad, in the end, is the action we take. — Hello Human

Our actions may have unintended consequences. We may think doing this or that is good, but if the result is harm and suffering, then is the action good?

So if I understand well, you think that to be wise is to have realized human excellence, and that to be wise is to have achieved some equilibrium of the soul ? — Hello Human

Rather than something achieved,the idea of human excellence is something to aspire to, like the just city/soul in the Republic, an image in speech. And, as with the discussion in the Republic, it depends not simply on an equilibrium, but the right balance of the parts, each seeking its own desire.

Our actions may have unintended consequences. We may think doing this or that is good, but if the result is harm and suffering then is the action good? — Fooloso4

I think there are nuances in how responsible one is for the consequences, and that affects the morality of the action, the more responsible we are, that is, the more control one has over the consequences, the more the action is bad.

Rather than something achieved,the idea of human excellence is something to aspire to, like the just city/soul in the Republic, an image in speech. And, as with the discussion in the Republic, it depends not simply on an equilibrium, but the right balance of the parts, each seeking its own desire. — Fooloso4

Ok I see. And what is knowledge’s place in this ?

And what is knowledge’s place in this ? — Hello Human

Since the good is what we aim for, it is knowledge of the good. This may be possible for one who has achieved human excellence, but for the rest of us we rely on deliberation about what seems best.

So if I understand your view of virtue and wisdom well, virtue is human excellence, which consists in balance in one’s soul and a person who has achieved human excellence is wise.

Also if I understand your view of goodness in general, the good is what everyone seeks, and what everyone seeks is knowledge of the good.

And then those two views are combined which leads to this reasoning:
P1: if to be virtuous is to have achieved excellence, this state of excellence being wisdom, and
P2: that knowledge of the good is the highest good, then
C: Knowledge of the good is virtue, which is wisdom.

...what everyone seeks is knowledge of the good. — Hello Human

But not everyone seeks knowledge of the good. They simply assume that what they seek, what they desire, is good. If, however, they were to seek the good rather than whatever it is they desire, then they would seek knowledge of the good. Or to put it differently, their desire would be to know the good.

Knowledge of the good is virtue, which is wisdom. — Hello Human

Yes, but knowledge is not a passive possession. It is the active state of the virtuous person who is wise.

Is wisdom best though of as the skill of living a good life ? Is it like riding a bike ? You get better by falling off less and less. Maybe you can end up riding hands free.

You mention courage. Maybe knowledge makes us less afraid of death or relative poverty in the first place. Maybe knowledge clarifies what's essential, counsels us to do what we can and forgive and accept what cannot be prevented, even with care and skill.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phronesis

Virtue is a mode of behaviour; wisdom is a mode of knowledge.
Behavour does not equal knowledge.
They can both be good, but that does not make them equal.

GAAAAAAA!!!!!

Virtue is a mode of behaviour; wisdom is a mode of knowledge. — god must be atheist

Nice! :up:

Thanks!

Virtue is about deeds, the toughest aspect of living the so-called good life. It just dawned on me that the set of actions is a proper subset of the set of thoughts. Let's leave it that way?

But not everyone seeks knowledge of the good. They simply assume that what they seek, what they desire, is good. If, however, they were to seek the good rather than whatever it is they desire, then they would seek knowledge of the good. Or to put it differently, their desire would be to know the good. — Fooloso4

Yes, but knowledge is not a passive possession. It is the active state of the virtuous person who is wise. — Fooloso4

Ok I see.

So, first of all, what do you mean exactly by balance in one’s soul ?

Virtue is a mode of behaviour; wisdom is a mode of knowledge.
Behavour does not equal knowledge.
They can both be good, but that does not make them equal. — god must be atheist

I think the lines are kind of blurry here. Knowledge, no matter the definition given, definitely still is related in a very significant way to behavior. Does mental activity equal behavior then ?

the set of actions is a proper subset of the set of thoughts — Agent Smith

Interesting position, why do you think so ?

Interesting position — Hello Human

:up:

So, first of all, what do you mean exactly by balance in one’s soul ? — Hello Human

I cannot tell you exactly what it means, but the politics of the soul as discussed in Plato's Republic is a good place to start. The soul is a competition of desires. Different souls are ruled by different desires. The just soul is one in which the various desires are brought into a hierarchical order, from low - bodily desires, to high - the desire for the just, beautiful, and good.

Ok I see.

So, do you consider “wisdom” to be a synonym of “virtue” or do you think they relate to each other in a different way ?

do you consider “wisdom” to be a synonym of “virtue” — Hello Human

No. If you go over what I have said, this should be clear.

Going over what you have said, it seems to me that wisdom for you is the state of having achieved human excellence, so is my understanding here correct ?

It is not that wisdom is the state of human excellence, but that someone who has achieved human excellence is wise. It might be possible, for example, to be wise but in poor health.

I think the lines are kind of blurry here. Knowledge, no matter the definition given, definitely still is related in a very significant way to behavior. — Hello Human

Not blurry at all. There are no lines here either. Two things that are related are not each other, they are not one and the same thing. And that is the crux of the matter which you so adamantly don't want to see.

Some examples: Physics is related to chemistry, but physics is not the same as chemistry.

Soccer is related to rugby, but they are not the same thing.

Marriage is related to prostitution, but they are not the same thing.

Jesus is related to Zeus, but they are not the same gods.

Stupidity is related to ignorance, but they are not the same thing.

Knowledge is related to behaviour, but they are not the same thing.

Virtue is related to wisdom, but they are not the same thing.

I'm most intrigued by the unanswered questions of both how and why the Greeks didn't grab the most obvious low hanging fruits in re morality viz. Kantian deontology and Benthamian utlitarianism? These moral theories seem too obvious to miss and yet the Greeks didn't even mention them in passing. What up with that? Something smells fishy here or is it just me? :snicker:

Something smells fishy here or is it just me? — Agent Smith

It's just you. These things were discussed but by other names.

It's just you. These things were discussed but by other names. — Fooloso4

Where? If it's not too much to ask I'd be grateful for a link. Muchas gracias.

No links, unless pointing to texts like Plato's Republic and Aristotle's Ethics and Politics count as links.

Look at the relation and distinction between nature and custom or logos and nomos.

No links, unless pointing to texts like Plato's Republic and Aristotle's Ethics and Politics count as links.

Look at the relation and distinction between nature and custom or logos and nomos. — Fooloso4

No problemo!

It is not that wisdom is the state of human excellence, but that someone who has achieved human excellence is wise. It might be possible, for example, to be wise but in poor health. — Fooloso4

So "wisdom" is the state of being a wise person, which is having achieved human excellence ?

So "wisdom" is the state of being a wise person, which is having achieved human excellence ? — Hello Human

The term "state" can be misleading. It is not a condition. It is the realization or actualization of a capacity.

But what do you think ? Is virtue really just equal to wisdom, or is there a plurality of virtues, each independent from the other(s) ? Or are all the virtues reducible to something that is not equal to wisdom ? — Hello Human

In my lived experience thus far, I have learned that wisdom comes from understanding and virtue follows as naturally as rivers stream into the ocean.The exchanges and experiences that shape us and "mistakes" that can eventually lead to clarity are the path towards knowing. Once you know something, you can not stop knowing but you can choose to ignore it.

To ignore that which is known is not virtuous. To know, and to behave accordingly is to understand and this I think, is to live virtuously.

Wisdom is knowing that you can't ignore because you have felt the consequences deeply, right down to the core of your being. Virtue is the natural outcome.

An example and metaphor being that if you touch a hot stove enough or for prolonged periods of intervals and the pain that you feel tells you to stop and then you cease repeating this action, then you are no longer behaving out of ignorance to the cause and effect of that particular action. You know from personal experience that the result is painful and that you don't like it. The motivation to not feel the pain again may be enough for you.

Would we call this wisdom or is that threshold to be earned at a soul deep level?

You can break this down even further. By performing an action that causes damage to yourself, you are also harming the body that you inhabit which was freely given to you by the universe.You didn't do anything to earn this body, yet you utilize it. By harming it, you are harming something that ultimately does not belong to you. Perhaps you might realize this if you choose to knowingly harm yourself for a period of time for any myriad of reasons.

Even deeper still, by causing bodily injury to yourself, you will require resources to aid in the healing process. During that period, you may be limited in your typical abilities. These two results pull from your environment and those who you co-exist with. The result is that to continue to do things which cause harm to yourself also saps energy from others. You can easily cause harm to those around you, by harming yourself. The true realization that your actions have an affect on those whom you are connected with brings you in alignment with reality. This ironically painful lesson may come with the realization that you have betrayed your fellow beings and yourself by continuing to act in ignorance. To really understand this, is when I think that we reach wisdom. This leads to greater virtue.