If they somehow got their hands on Pence do you think he would have been safe? Judging by the signs, it would seem reasonable to think that he would not have been safe.

If they somehow got their hands on Pence do you think he would have been safe? Judging by the signs, it would seem reasonable to think he would not have been safe.

If in some alternate universe they got to Pence they would not have hung him. They would have embraced and sung revolution songs together as they tore down American democracy.

Do you think they were there for selfies with Pence? — Fooloso4

They were there on a tour. They just forgot the visiting hours. Honest mistake.

They would have embraced and sung revolution songs together as they tore down American — NOS4A2

Wrong, Pence upheld democracy and that’s why they hate him.

Oh, right, only you know what happens in your alternative universe.

Repeat after me: there was no insurrection. The people there were not there because the votes from a free election were being certified —they were there because the election was STOLEN, as told by the Great One. They were defending democracy, peacefully.

:starstruck:

I know what threat means — NOS4A2

Evidently you do not:

An “actual threat” that didn’t turn into an actual hanging wasn’t much of an actual threat, I guess. — NOS4A2

I just do not pretend to know someone’s motivations. — NOS4A2

A threat and the motivation behind it are two different things.

Do you really believe there was a lynch mob there conspiring to hang the Vice President? — NOS4A2

You say you do not pretend to know someone's motivations, but do pretend to know the mob's motivation when you claim that a noose and scaffolding was not intended to be used.

The scaffolding did not appear by magic. You might argue that it was symbolic, but the thing about an angry mob is that otherwise rational people will do things they would not do under other circumstances. I see no reason not to think that there was a lynch mob there. It may have been small to start, but if the mob had gotten hold of Pence it seems likely they would have hanged him.

Again, I do not know what the motivations were, and nowhere did I claim it was or was not intended to be used. But the reporter who found the noose said the gallows was too small and weak to be used, anyways, so there is that. But if you have evidence it was going to be used it may be a good idea to provide it.

They were there on a tour. They just forgot the visiting hours. Honest mistake. — Xtrix

True, but there is more to it. The rumor was that Pence was going to bring a picnic lunch for everybody. Understandably they went in search of it and had to break a few doors and windows and heads to find it. No free lunch? Hang him!

Absent the evidence there’s nowhere else to go but to cower in the comfort of a circle jerk with another true believer.

Again, I do not know what the motivations were, and nowhere did I claim it was or was not intended to be used. — NOS4A2

So to clarify your position, you do not know why the rioters were there or what they were doing or what would have happened if security measures failed.

Since you do not know you cannot say that there was no real threat to members of Congress or to the process of certifying the election results.

Since you do not know their motivations you do not rule out the possibility that they were there for a tour, a picnic lunch, and a photo op to take selfies with Pence and members of Congress.

Since you do not know the only rational option is to minimize the whole thing as nothing more than "one tiny riot" that, unforeseen, broke out amongst a group of peace-loving patriots armed to the teeth. That Trump telling them to "fight like hell" was part of his "extremely calming speech". Besides , he said: “I wasn’t involved in that" (Interview with Laura Ingraham).

Oh, right, only you know what happens in your alternative universe. — NOS4A2

Don't take my word for it, you trust your idol don't you?

You [Pence] can either go down in history as a patriot, or you can go down in history as a pussy.

...

You can do this. I don’t want to be your friend anymore if you don’t do this.

...

If you don’t do it, I picked the wrong man four years ago. You’re going to wimp out. — Trump

The MAGAnites hate wimps and pussies... if Trump programs them to hate wimps and pussies.

Again, I do not know what the motivations were, and nowhere did I claim it was or was not intended to be used. — NOS4A2

Funny how that never stops judges from imputing mens rea from people's behaviour.



I invite you to search NOS4A2's comments concerning Rittenhouse to see the full extent of the hypocrisy going on here.

Personally in my humble opinion burdens doing a real good job better than the last clown

For Jan. 6 rioters who believed Trump, storming the Capitol made sense

But the rioters themselves haven't been circumspect about what made them travel — in some cases hundreds of miles — to Washington for a rally that day and then march on the Capitol, which hundreds of them entered.

In interviews and court proceedings they've been clear: They believed Donald Trump when he told them the election had been stolen, and they believed it was their duty to try to help keep him in office, which in their eyes was essentially an effort to save the democracy.

...

Kenneth Rader, who pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge this month, admitted in court documents that he shared an image with 40 Facebook friends that read “Operation Occupy the Capitol, January 6, 2021” and wrote that Trump supporters were “going to remove the corrupt politions and take our country back... I will not stand by and let this go unanswered.”

...

Another woman was incredulous when asked by a reporter on Jan. 6 why she tried to storm the Capitol building, crying about being sprayed in the face with mace.

“We’re storming the Capitol!” she said in a video that was posted on Twitter, explaining why she tried to go inside. “It’s a revolution!”

...

Ryan Nichols, who was visible in the footage shown by the Jan. 6 committee on Thursday, pleaded not guilty and is being held in detention before his trial. A judge ruled Nichols was a threat based on evidence that included a “plethora” of videos, including some in which he appears to confess to fighting at the Capitol, filmed himself threatening violence on his way to the Capitol and then explained the reason he committed violence.

“So yes, today, Ryan Nichols, Ryan Nichols,” he says in the video, speaking in third person, adding that he grabbed his weapon “and he stormed the Capitol and he fought.” He goes on to say he fought for “freedom” and “election integrity.”

“I fought!”

In Harvard study of Jan. 6 rioters, top motivation is clear: Trump

A plurality of rioters cited either their support for Trump (20.6%) or Trump’s false belief that the election had been stolen (also 20.6%) as their primary motivation for their actions that led to charges on Jan. 6.

The third most frequently listed reason defendants gave to law enforcement for entering the Capitol was their belief that they were participating in “revolution, civil war, or secession.”

About the same number of defendants in the study claimed they were at the Capitol to “peacefully protest” (7%) as those who claimed they were there because of a “general interest in violence” (6.2%).

Anyone who isn't an idiot understands why they stormed the Capitol. They were trying to stop the Electoral College vote.

That’s not a clarification of my position. That’s an obfuscation of my position. If you want to know my position you can ask for it.

When reading Trump’s speech he uses the word “fight” numerous times, and in no instance is the word used literally like you pretend he did. For instance when he says “Jim Jordan and some of these guys, they're out there fighting”, or “the House guys are fighting”, or when speaking of Rudy “He fights; he fights”, or “And if they don't fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don't fight”, it takes a man governed by propaganda or stupidity to believe Trump is speaking of acts of violence here. In fact, Trump assumed “everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard”.

The ones who gave anyone the idea that something besides a rally was going to occur was the press, who promised everyone that Trump would declare martial law, invoke the insurrection act, and use the military to change the results of the election. (https://www.justsecurity.org/73986/invoking-martial-law-to-reverse-the-2020-election-could-be-criminal-sedition/) these were utter lies and conspiracy theories of the highest q-anon order, as we now know, and the press believed them.

Anyone who isn't an idiot understands why they stormed the Capitol. They were trying to stop the Electoral College vote. — Michael

Where’s the evidence? Besides them explicitly saying it, I mean. Who are we to look into the hearts and souls of these people?

We must be NUANCED. Except when it comes to BLM riots — screw those people.

I suppose if they had found Pence, there was a chance they’d have a reasonable, rational conversation with him, laying out their grievances. Can we REALLY say for sure?

Thank you. Not one shred of evidence that anyone wanted to hang Mike Pence.

Skip to 1:25.

Yes, we’ve already gone over the chants, but thanks.

That’s an obfuscation of my position. — NOS4A2

You are well practiced in obfuscation.

If you want to know my position you can ask for it. — NOS4A2

Why? You have already made it clear.

When reading Trump’s speech he uses the word “fight” numerous times, and in no instance is the word used literally like you pretend he did. — NOS4A2

The thing about Trumpspeak is that he always attempts to leave room for plausible deniability. But his actions belie this attempt to render it innocuous. Why did he not attempt to immediately put a stop to this "one tiny riot"? In the speech he gave the next day why didn't he condemn their actions? Why did he edit the draft of the speech to eliminate criticism of their actions?Some committee findings.

Trump assumed “everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard”. — NOS4A2

Right, that is what someone would assume when they are armed to the teeth.

The ones who gave anyone the idea that something besides a rally was going to occur was the press — NOS4A2

He was warned

The ones who gave anyone the idea that something besides a rally was going to occur was the press — NOS4A2

Not just one but two MAGAnite groups (proud boys and oath keepers) planned for use of force to stop the peaceful transfer of power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/15/timeline-how-two-extremist-groups-planned-jan-6/

*facepalm* What a fucking farce.

WASHINGTON, Aug 20 (Reuters) - The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/

Timothy Thibault, the FBI agent alleged to have interfered with an investigation into Hunter Biden, was assigned by the Washington Field Office as “point man” to manage whistleblower Tony Bobulinski, the first son’s former business partner, before the 2020 election — but he suppressed his damning revelations, sources say.

Bobulinski spent over five hours secretly being interviewed by the FBI on Oct. 23, 2020, about his inside knowledge of then-presidential candidate Joe Biden’s involvement in his son’s business deals with China.

The previous day he had revealed in a press conference that Joe Biden was the “Big Guy” due to get a 10% cut of a lucrative joint venture with Chinese energy firm CEFC, according to an email found on Hunter’s abandoned laptop.

Bobulinski gave the FBI the contents of three cellphones containing encrypted messages between Hunter and his business partners, along with emails and financial documents detailing the Biden family’s corrupt influence peddling operation in foreign countries during Joe’s vice presidency.

But his evidence appears to have fallen into the same black hole at the FBI as Hunter’s laptop, never to be seen again.

FBI agent Timothy Thibault hid intel from whistleblower on Hunter and the ‘Big Guy’ Joe Biden

At this point US politics seems so utterly corrupt and devoid of reason, I find it hard to imagine why anyone with a brain would willingly defend either side.

It's hard to imagine how it can get worse. Though I trust it will find a way.

You cite an article from August 20, 2021, ten months before the June 8, 2022 hearings began. The committee hearings did provide evidence that it was a coordinated attack.

What is the alternative?

They would have embraced and sung revolution songs together as they tore down American democracy. — NOS4A2

That's correct.

The only way to destroy American democracy is to say that you are protecting it from a clear and obvious threat. And then really believe in what you are saying (to be clear, obvious and true).

In my view in January 6th Trump could have made a self-coup, assuming he would have the objective and the leadership qualities starting from forming a real junta, controlling at least his own security entourage (which drove him off, which is hilarious) and then going forward with emergency powers until the "threat to the democratic system" would have been dealt with. Then have the ability to stage fake trials.

But he didn't do that.

He didn't put a no-nonsense guy like general Flynn in charge in the military and have ready other supporting officers to replace the joint chiefs of the armed forces when they would have resigned. No, he relied on his lawyers and some pillow guy. As if these kind if things are done by legal loopholes. Any kind of real self-coup would have to have real planning, solid backers in the government believing the cause to be righteous, which would mean that the main conspirator would have to have some leadership skills.

Which we know the very able orator and populist Trump doesn't have. What he would have had is fervent die hard supporters on the street backing his self-coup. One cannot underestimate their role...if Trump would have walked to Capitol Hill with them. And the strategic surprise: people simply wouldn't have fathomed a self-coup happening in the US. The nation simply would have been in self denial afterwards.

To do real self-coup, on live television, Saddam Hussein actually shows the way:


But of course it was the usual Trump train wreck. Because what else does Trump do?

And as pathetic the whole debacle was, the worry that it can happen again is alarmist. And frantically sounding the Trump alarm bells just alienates people, when actual problems of the present should be the focus of discussion.

Nope, the US will just have awful elections, especially Presidential ones.