As those "woke" Romans used to say: cui bono? In the US, for instance, do whites or non-whites benefit more from the historical legacies – persistance – of racism and therefore have more of a vested interest in institutionally perpetuating racism than the other? Stop lying to yourself. :mask:

I did not mean to imply that straight white males should be the vanguard of a new class consciousness for the working class. The class consciousness already exists and has been developed by people of all backgrounds. Straight white men merely need to wake up and join.

:fire:

Straight white men merely need to wake up and join. — _db

Join what?

Race struggle is primarily of economic origin. Oppression was class oppression, literally about an economic transaction (slavery), at first, then about a supply of cheap labour, justification for colonialism...

Feminism likewise. The oppression of women being largely about the control of inheritance through sexual oppression and marriage inequality, control of offspring...

Just because those two minority struggles were parallel to class struggle in their goal of unshackling said minorities from their economic ostracism, doesn't mean we can just subsume any other minority struggle in class struggle.

I see nothing in the mistreatment of transgender people or homosexuals, for example, which plays an economic role. It's just prejudice.

Class struggle is intimately tied to race and sex struggles. I see very little connection with most of the issues on the modern white cisgender male's hate list.

Interesting perspective. Just speculating, but I think we can see the mistreatment of homosexuals in economic terms as well, as they would not produce heirs to a lineage.

Just because those two minority struggles were parallel to class struggle in their goal of unshackling said minorities from their economic ostracism, doesn't mean we can just subsume any other minority struggle in class struggle. — Isaac

Sure, I agree with that. Not every form of oppression is based on class struggle.

If the straight white man experiences oppression, it is not because he is white, straight and a man, but because he is part of the working class in the capitalist system. That is the only form of oppression that the straight white man can legitimately claim to be suffering from.

The straight white men that complain about reverse racism or reverse sexism need an explanation for why their lives suck, and they incorrectly and stupidly attribute it to the social justice movements of women and minorities, rather than capitalism. The privileges they have (as straight white men) are a crutch (that come at the expense of other people), and they despise anyone who threatens to take that crutch away from them, rather than questioning why they even need a crutch to begin with.

I think we can see the mistreatment of homosexuals in economic terms as well, as they would not produce heirs to a lineage. — _db

That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure how it would flesh out, but might be fruitful line line of thought...

The straight white men that complain about reverse racism or reverse sexism need an explanation for why their lives suck, and they incorrectly and stupidly attribute it to the social justice movements of women and minorities, rather than capitalism. — _db

But this a feature, not a bug.

As said (though I'm sure for different reasons) cui bono?

Who benefits from the fact that the white working class cisgender males (the vast majority of the working class) have such a convenient, and unending supply of alternative sumps for their anger?

Who benefits from the fact that the oppressed are never just 'the poor' and the oppressors never just 'the capitalists'?

What I'm saying is that getting white cisgender males to think about class struggle rather than race/gender/sexuality is really, really easy...stop feeding them a non-stop diet of news about race/gender/sexuality so that they can actually think about other issues for five minutes.

What's a lot harder is getting the wealthy black, the wealthy women, the wealthy homosexuals and the wealthy transgeneder to realise the oppression they suffer (which is genuine) pales into insignificance compared to the thousands of children dying from poverty on a daily basis, the homeless, the ones that can't afford to heat their homes this winter... The issues that should fill entirely the front page of every newspaper to the exclusion of all other stories until they're solved. The problems that should absorb every ounce of campaigning fervour.

With regards to the poor white male's grievance or the rich black trans lesbian's, I have little sympathy for either. Both are clutching at exculpatory narratives, both are looking to distract attention from the fact that their very lifestyles are an act of oppression against the actual poor - the sweatshop worker, the peasant farmer, the modern slave.

They feel as if everyone but themselves is allowed a social narrative that they can identify with and can be proud about. Why can't white people have White Lives Matter? Why can't men have a men's rights movement? Why can't heterosexual people have straight pride events? — _db

You might be into something here: narrative envy. But it seems to me that such envy is easily satisfied: there are men's right movements, including progressive ones, and they do develop alternative narratives about men in society that are more positive than run-off-the-mill men bashing, and more progressive than standard machismo.

I actually lived under reverse racism for a period time. That was back in elementary school. I lived in a culture that was about 99% white. There was one black girl of my age in the entire municipal entity, and perhaps a handful of schoolchildren of other races altogether. The authorities back then uncritically adopted American theories of racism and so pushed on us the view that we're all white supremacists who are repressing blacks. This resulted in this girl getting away with all kinds of shit (things that other children would be disciplined for if they did them). We had to stand back and let her be that way because any criticism of her was automatically interpreted as "racist". All sense of justice and fairness was gone.

I notice this trend of anti-racist overcompensation sometimes now as well. Not in regard to all races and all socio-economic classes, of course. In our culture, it's generally acceptable to be viciously racist against the Romas and people from former Yugoslav republics. Also against poor immigrants and refugees from poor countries, regardless of their actual skin color. But being critical (or saying anything that can be interpreted as critical) of anything that an educated enough/well-off enough black person does is likely going to be interpreted as "racist". It makes for uneven, unfair interactions. And this in a country that has no history in the trade of black slaves or any history of systemic repression of blacks.

Is there a broader ideological system that you ascribe to? I have some guesses but I don't want to make any assumptions.

With regards to the poor white male's grievance or the rich black trans lesbian's, I have little sympathy for either. Both are clutching at exculpatory narratives, both are looking to distract attention from the fact that their very lifestyles are an act of oppression against the actual poor - the sweatshop worker, the peasant farmer, the modern slave. — Isaac

It seems to me that in order to help other people, you have to take care of yourself first. Devoting a significant amount of time and energy to aiding the modern slaves of the world requires that certain conditions be met in your own life. But I can't define what the threshold is between justified self-care and gratuitous self-care, it seems fuzzy.

I think that if there is anything to criticize about the social justice movements in developed countries, it's the way they have been commodified and turned into just another avenue for consumption.

Is there a broader ideological system that you ascribe to? — _db

Difficult to answer simply (as I suspect is the case for most people) broadly old-school socialist probably fits the bill best.

It seems to me that in order to help other people, you have to take care of yourself first. Devoting a significant amount of time and energy to aiding the modern slaves of the world requires that certain conditions be met in your own life. But I can't define what the threshold is between justified self-care and gratuitous self-care, it seems fuzzy. — _db

Yeah, I agree with that. I suppose that other people's position on where that threshold is would be my point of argument. Is it something that's just a personal matter, or does society get to have a discussion about where it is.

I think that if there is anything to criticize about the social justice movements in developed countries, it's the way they have been commodified and turned into just another avenue for consumption. — _db

I think this is true too, but does that mean you don't see them playing any obfuscatory role at all? Is it just coincidence that resolving these modern issues, even to the complete satisfaction of the complainants, would have absolutely no impact on the capitalist class at all? Have they just got lucky with what's bothering the modern youth?

Is it just coincidence that resolving these modern issues, even to the complete satisfaction of the complainants, would have absolutely no impact on the capitalist class at all? — Isaac

Yeah I think this is a common criticism leftists make of liberals. They want to reform the system, make it "nicer", but don't want to fundamentally change the way it works. It's all surface-level, appearance-based, superficial and totally impotent. There's so much energy wasted on crap that ends up just improving the capitalist system.

This is something that seems to have happened across social justice movements. Like, second-wave feminists were hard-core. People were scared of them. And there was a heavy current of socialist thought involved in it as well, it really was a revolutionary-minded wave.

Nowadays it's mostly lukewarm, apathetic "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" slacktivism that is more of a corporate HR propaganda tool than anything else and ends up produces mind-numbingly stupid shit like this.

We acknowledge that TikTok dances may not have been the greatest tactic to get the SCOTUS draft rejected, but please understand that this was part of a greater awareness campaign.

What the fuck??

"Common topics discussed within the men's rights movement include family law (such as child custody, alimony and marital property distribution), reproduction, suicides, domestic violence against men, circumcision, education, conscription, social safety nets, and health policies."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights_movement

I found this interesting. It is true that certain issues do in fact overly impact men that might require addressing, and it's also likely true few men would advocate that they be addressed because such a demand for help is contrary to masculinity.

I also realize that many would join men's right groups for misogynistic and chauvinistic reasons, making such discussions challenging.

Looking at this from a most generous, good faith, academic perspective, I can see some merit in stepping back and asking if there is male discrimination that should be addressed. I'm not advocating any particular political solution to whatever is discovered, but it seems a relevant sociological study to at least understand what dysfunctional standards we might unknowingly be enforcing.

historical legacies — 180 Proof

:up: It takes more the one generation for a family to find its niche in society. Any mishaps along the way and it's back to square one. That said it isn't such a good idea to constantly harp on the "historical legacies" of the races - that white folks had it good and the other races didn't. Sapiens qui prospicit (wise is he who looks ahead). That doesn't mean blacks & other races weren't dealt a bad hand - to think so would be akin to denying the holocaust.

What the fuck?? — _db

...is, I think the only appropriate response!

But maybe I'm just getting old and curmudgeonly. I eagerly await the new era of social justice heralded in by some half-grown twenty somethings doing a dance... If only Martin Luther King had got a bit of a shuffle on, popped a few disco moves, who knows where we'd be...

You stopped making sense at " :up: " ...

You stopped making sense at " :up: " ... — 180 Proof

:blush: One can't be always right! Oh well!