Jesus is known through his apostles. This is well known — introbert
"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart." - Thomas Jefferson to William Short, Monticello, 13 April 1820[1]
Pasted from <http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/dupes-and-impostors-quotation>
↪Tom Storm ↪ThinkOfOne
I'm feeling kind of sorry for wading into this one. All I know about this topic is that I know nothing. — introbert
It's a terrible argument, because it treats elements of Gospel narratives as established fact. Anyone who accepts the Gospels is already convinced. Anyone who doesn't accept them will reject the premises that Jesus made the statements.I would like to know what people think of C.S. Lewis's argument for the divinity of Christ — Dermot Griffin
The following makes Lewis' argument a non-starter.
As documented in the Four Gospels, while He walked the Earth Jesus never claimed to be God. Wherein Jesus claims to be literally God.
Yes, He claimed to be a "son of God". But He called for everyone to become "sons of God" as He was a son of God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matthew 5:9).
It's a theme that runs throughout the gospel preached by Jesus. For example, someone "born from above" IS someone "born of the spirit [of God]" IS someone who has God as their Father IS a "son" of God.
Yes, He claimed to be "one" with God. But He called for everyone to become "one" with God as He was "one" with God.
I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. “And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.
(John 17:20-23)
Jesus repeatedly makes a clear distinction between Himself and God. As but a couple of examples:
"He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. “He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me." (John 12:44-45)
“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works." (John 14:10)
I've yet to have seen a cogent argument that Jesus claimed to be God while He walked the Earth. Can you make one? — ThinkOfOne
Since you responded as if you believe that Jesus claimed to be God, can you address the following which I posted earlier? — ThinkOfOne
Since you responded as if you believe that Jesus claimed to be God, can you address the following which I posted earlier?
— ThinkOfOne
How did you come to that conclusion? I said, we don't know what Jesus actually said, because the testimonial evidence is too weak. — Sam26
If someone claimed to be God, he may not be a lunatic, he may just be delusional (you could argue that being delusional is a mental illness), or a good liar. — Sam26
If someone claimed to be God, he may not be a lunatic, he may just be delusional (you could argue that being delusional is a mental illness), or a good liar. — Sam26
While we don't know that Jesus necessarily said what was attributed to Him, there's no compelling reason to believe that He necessarily did not. I've always found that argument really weak. The argument seems to be, "If we don't know that He necessarily said it, then there's no point in discussing anything that was attributed to Him". If that's an acceptable argument, then that argument could be used for many a historical figure. — ThinkOfOne
I would like to know what people think of C.S. Lewis's argument for the divinity of Christ. — Dermot Griffin
Ya, "IF" he said it, but I have no strong evidence/reasons to conclude that he did say it, other than very weak testimonial evidence. — Sam26
Why are you framing the argument in such absolute terms? I sure didn't frame it that way. Even if there was strong testimonial evidence to support that Jesus said X, Y, or Z, that doesn't support the idea that Jesus said it necessarily. The argument is an inductive argument. Inductive arguments don't give us conclusions that follow necessarily, only deductive arguments do that. So, again, it's not about what Jesus said necessarily. It's about what he probably said, or didn't say. If it was true that that is what I was implying, then I would agree, but it's not what I was implying. — Sam26
Actually you wrote "IF" He claimed it. Not "IF" He said it. — ThinkOfOne
The point you seemed to miss is that even "probably said" cannot be reasonably determined from the available evidence. — ThinkOfOne
↪ThinkOfOne Well, we just disagree. I'll leave it at that. — Sam26
↪ThinkOfOne I could same about you, but where does that get us? We have different ideas about what's reasonable. I'm not even sure what you believe. I've been analyzing these arguments for about 47 years, so I quite familiar with the arguments. Moreover, I've a good background in logic, so don't talk to me about reasonably backing up my arguments. I find that most Christians, if you are one, aren't good at defending their beliefs. — Sam26
You ALSO can't reasonably conclude that Jesus DID NOT say X, Y, or Z. — ThinkOfOne
You ALSO can't reasonably conclude that Jesus DID NOT say X, Y, or Z.
— ThinkOfOne
Sure I can. A few pages later he comes back from the dead. Hardly seems a credible book to take literally -- so it's reasonable to conclude Jesus didn't say anything, given that it's a fantastical text written by fervent people and pasted together as a political convenience. — Moliere
↪ThinkOfOne You sound more like a troll than someone who is interested in good arguments. — Sam26
You're conflating the words attributed to Jesus said while He walked the Earth with the mythology NT writers wrapped around His words. — ThinkOfOne
You're conflating the words attributed to Jesus said while He walked the Earth with the mythology NT writers wrapped around His words.
— ThinkOfOne
How do you disentangle the two? — Fooloso4
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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