I want to try and figure out what definitions and explanations you have of the term ‘myth’? — I like sushi

You are right. I should had started with a basic definition of mythology.
The paper I read a few days ago contains a brief definition of what we can consider as mythos or mythology: "Mythopoeic" means "making" (ποιεῖν, poieîn, from which the word "poet" is derived) "myth" (μῦθος, mûthos, means report, tale, story”)

just looked up the Greek word "mythos" (= myth) in my dictionary of Ancient Greek Language --a huge one!. Both meanings are included, but with a slightly different description. The first meaning refers to speech, narration, story, independently of being true or false. — Alkis Piskas

Thanks for sharing. It is very helpful for this thread! :up:

I will never understood the tendency to degrade both philosophy and Greek mythology. — javi2541997

As I said to @Agent Smith, Mythology has never been degraded. It has kept is "status" and value, and that's why it is still taught in schools today (the Greek ones, at least). The word "myth" is what has been degraded.

My only guess is that some powerful people who control the education don't want to have critical thinkers. — javi2541997

This is unfortunately true! And esp. the clergy, with the Orthodox Church in the first place. Together with fascism and totalitarianism, religious dogmatism does its best to keep people in ignorance, by either hiding or falsifying facts and history in general. I read recently what is taught in the Russian schools today about the war in Ukraine. It makes you vomit!

I'm interested, deeply so, in dilemmas and its close cousins if you know what I mean. Making hard choices, tough decisions, finding oneself between Scylla and Charybis, that sorta thing. Life seems to be about choices - imagine a complex decision web that represents your life. Can you point to any myths - culture irrelevant - that revolve around this subject? Muchas gracias señor!

I want to try and figure out what definitions and explanations you have of the term ‘myth’ — I like sushi

You can also check this, besides @javi's excellent description of his topic: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/736855
(It's about the root of the word "myth".)

Excellent topic and presentation, @javi! :up:

(I came to the source of the thread, well, after I have reacted to comments in it! :grin:)

I am not entirely sure what you will think of this …

I am very much interested in anthropology and the role ‘religion’ has played in cultural development (not merely conventional modern ideas of religions - as in organisations). I have come to regard ‘mythos’ as the basis of human communication.

I have reason to believe that verbal communication was developed after play acting forms of communication and that even today humans are pretty much geared to explaining the world by ‘acting out’ it is just that verbal ‘language’ (spoken, written and/or signed) has come to dominate human ‘thought’ (note: ‘thinking’ is not necessarily something that involved ‘words’).

I also have fairly solid grounds to state that human beings understand the world, first and foremost, as an ‘emotional landscape’. On top of this our disposition to ‘emotional interaction’ (with each other or the world in general) plays into how we learn and communicate ideas. Memory is essential for passing on information and various mnemonic techniques work so, so well due to using emotions as prompts to recall information - ideas laden with extreme emotionally charged contents are more readily remembered.

I should pause here as the most difficult problem I have here is that I am using words to explain something that is absent of verbal baggage and underlies our very being. This is not me stating that ‘language’ is or is not innate, just that at some point in our evolution we developed a broader tenporal understanding of the world, and ‘langauge’ (as we commonly refer to it), sprung forth and readily attached itself to our underlying ‘mythos’ (which is an intersubjective beast being both ‘subjective’ and yet clearly ‘objective’ as can be evidenced by looking at common markers across various traditions and our growing appreciation of fundamental human traits).

Any thoughts on that semi-ramble?

Another facile analogy ...

:sparkle: mythos : logos :: magic : logic :fire:

... the latter constitutes the attempt (à la philosophy) to formalize / conceptualize / naturalize the former.

Can you point to any myths - culture irrelevant - that revolve around this subject? — Agent Smith

I just read this definition of the word "dilemma" from a standard source (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilemma): "A situation requiring a choice between equally undesirable alternatives." (Stress is mine.) How can such a totally unacceptable definition survive? I value and use dictionaries a lot, but sometimes they make me mad. My Greek dictionary says "desirable or undesirable". Which is actually the case and it is pragmatic.

Now, if I undestand well, you want to know about some ancient myth that refers to or of which the central point is a dilemma or dilemmas. Is that right? Or is it just a rhetoric question?

Any thoughts on that semi-ramble? — I like sushi

I think you are saying something that I have been wondering how to say for a long time. I would say it's a whole topic in itself. For me the question came up again as I was reading recent threads about truth. The logic of truth presents difficult problems and fine surgery is needed. One point that does not tend to come up in discussions is that we have a fiery emotional attachment to truth, guarding it jealously for our own beliefs and resenting claims to it that we regard as undeserving. It is related to trust, social cohesion and sanity itself. I don't think this observation will help directly with unpicking the logic of truth. But there is an emotional background that lends an atmosphere, a flavour, to the discussions of logic. And there is something to explore about why our relationship with truth is both intellectual and so strongly emotional. I don't know whether I'm riffing to your tune exactly, but for what it's worth.

Any thoughts on that semi-ramble? — I like sushi

(note: ‘thinking’ is not necessarily something that involved ‘words’). — I like sushi

Just to add some more comments to your arguments, I would like to share a good work called How to Do Things With Words by J.L. Austin.
According to this philopher: A statement is performative when nothing is stated or described but an act is performed. The performative is subjected to conditions of "happiness", depending on a situational (or circumstantial) context.

Therefore, it elaborates a taxonomy of the different ways we can have of “doing” something when saying something, divided into three categories: the locutionary act (saying something is doing something), the illocutionary act (when saying something we are doing something) and the perlocutionary act (because we say something we are doing something). It recognizes in the illocutionary act the essential act of the word, therefore it tries to establish a taxonomy of the different values ​​that the verbs of an illocutionary act can adopt.

Well, the term ‘truth’ is essentially an emotionally charged concept. All concepts are moe or less emotionally charged. Our sense of ‘reality’ and/or ‘truth’ is not usually something to can wrestle with as it is our keystone. Such is called (in Jungian speak) our Axis Mundi or in more philosophical jargon our Weltanschauung.

In the terms you use I would simply ask what kind of characters ‘Intellect,’ ‘Logic,’ ‘Truth,’ and ‘Emotion’ might be and how they would relate and interact with each other in the stage in your head?

When thinking about this keep in mind that infants have strong emotional interest when watching abstract shapes move around. For example they will watch a Square moving towards a Circle and hitting it repeatedly. They are seeing the Square ‘attack’ the Circle. This is a well documented phenomenon of how human’s interpret abstract objects interacting. We see an ‘emotional act’ playing out where ever we can. This is long before we learn to speak.

want to know about some ancient myth that refers to or of which the central point is a dilemma or dilemmas. — Alkis Piskas

Si, si!

I found this :point: Sophie's choice on Wikipedia. Then there's the trolley problem (re utilitarianism) and the axe murderer at the door (re Kantian ethics). Have you heard of Protagoras' paradox of the court? It's worth the read - the counterdilemma "solution" to dilemmas.

@schopenhauer1 did allude to this point about life - it's kinda like a torture chamber game where you havta make a choice between two/more undesirable options, one after another till we die and perhaps even beyond, in the afterlife. :scream: Takes the fun outta free will if you ask me.

You raised a good point in re the choices needn't necessarily be undesirable, they could both be desirable and could be had (double the pleasure or something like that) at the same time (polyamory was probably the norm whether all parties were willing paricipants or not).

Too, quite notably, the logical OR is inclusive.

Interesting, oui?

And some linguists are happy to refer to ‘language’ in a broader sense than others. Those that study animal communication are quite happy to refer to ‘language’ as something animals possess (just clearly not in the common use of the term in colloquial speech).

[Re: Dillemas in Mythology]
I used the Web ro "refresh" my memory ... but I rather found new stuff! :grin:

The following might statisfy your curiosity ...
(Actually, I worked for you, because you could easily get all this info yourself! So, you owe me one! :wink:)

- Ethical Decision-Making in Greek Mythology
https://ut-flags.medium.com/ethical-decision-making-in-greek-mythology-162ec24b25b1

- Greek Mythology’s Double Standard- The Moral Dilemma of Revenge
https://www.academia.edu/29219286/Greek_Mythology_s_Double_Standard_The_Moral_Dilemma_of_Revenge

- Are there any examples of Greek myths where a character is faced with a moral dilemma and must make a decision?
https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-examples-of-Greek-myths-where-a-character-is-faced-with-a-moral-dilemma-and-must-make-a-decision

The last ref I think is the best, since it actually refers to your own question and has a lot of answers in it.

BTW, referring to the expression "Between Scylla and Charybdis" that you brought up and the myth that lies behind it, and particularly "choosing the lesser of two evils", there's a good match with the position I formulated recenty on the Trolley problem, namely "Avoid major damage" .

re the choices needn't necessarily be undesirable ... Too, quite notably, the logical OR is inclusive. Interesting, oui? — Agent Smith

Interessante, si.

Much obliged mon ami, much obliged. :up:

You're welcome.

:up:

How to Do Things With Words by J.L. Austin.
According to this philopher: A statement is performative when nothing is stated or described but an act is performed. — javi2541997

All ye lovers and worshippers of Sophia, take notice that there are other gods. As you look down from your temples, you see Psyche, Ego, Mars, and Venus, your muses and your fates, and imagine them your servants not your gods. You think Poseidon is tamed; you think yourselves, indeed, above Sophia herself. To stand above the gods is a precarious place to dream oneself. Beware!

What about, if I may ask, modern mythology viz. superheroes & supervillains and their tales that are fed to children and adults alike via comics/animation/toys/movies/books, with, I'm hoping, a positive impact - lessons on morality, social issues, science, older myths, etc.?

I am afraid we are not rid of [Myths] because we still have faith in grammar. — Twilight of the Idols

:fire:

I am afraid we are not rid of [Myths] because we still have faith in grammar. — Twilight of the Idols

373 ... (Theology as grammar.) — Philosophical Investigations

I was quoting Joseph Campbell in another thread, might be appropriate here in a discussion of myth:

“Myth is what we call other people's religion.”
― Joseph Campbell

“Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.”
― Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor

If even one person could master both Philosophy and Myth (and Art) in a way that upheld Plato’s ideals of Truth, Beauty, and Goodness... and find a way to share it with the world... maybe we could find a way out of the desert we are wandering in.

Or maybe someone already has? And we are still trying to grasp it? Would not be too surprising.

"Superheroes" and celebrities.

"Superheroes" and celebrities. — 180 Proof

:up: I'm sure there are some people out there who worship movie stars - thespians who've acquired legendary status among their fans, becoming role models to emulate and fall in love with.

@Alkis Piskas

Hello Alkis, I have been reading interesting information on Greek philosophy and culture. I remember debating with you in this thread (and another one) the importance of Greek lexicon and different dialects.
Whenever you want or have free time, I recommend you to read this paper: The Eponymous Archons of Athens

Anyway, I think it is important to reopen this thread because I perceived two interesting facts on Greek philosophy: "Epic Greek dialect" and "Arcadian Greek dialect" . The author says: The Greeks believed that the Ionians had long lived where they did but that the Dorians had arrived rather late. Indeed, another Greek dialect, not shown on the map, is "Epic" Greek, the language of the Iliad and the Odyssey. Epic Greek is more like Ionic and Aeolic than the other dialects. Classical Greek culture, including philosophy, began in Ionia, whose name became the word for "Greek" in all the languages to the East,...

Interesting! Do you agree with his opinion?

He continues with another fact he says is important to consider regarding the root of philosophy: Even more intriguing is a dialect isolated in the heart of the Peloponnesus, Arcadian. Surrounded by Doric and Northwestern, Arcadian is nevertheless similar to Cypriot, the dialect of Greek spoken in Cyprus. This suggests that Arcadian was the original language of the south of Greece, overrun and isolated by the Doric invasion, with the Cypriots either as a now isolated outlier or as actual refugees from the West. On Cyprus the Greeks also used a unique syllabary to write their language. The Cypriots apparently have therefore preserved, uniquely, the writing system of their Mycenaean ancestors.

When I read this paper, I thought: Were the original philosophical works written in Epic Greek or Arcadian Greek? It is sooooo interesting.

The map of Greece that the author referred to in his paper is this:

I recommend you to read this paper: The Eponymous Archons of Athens — javi2541997

Hi Javi.
Thanks for the ref. I just had a look. The content is too "literary" and "historical" for me. My background in and my knowledge of both literature and history are quite limited. And my interests in them follow the trend or pattern.

"Epic Greek dialect" and "Arcadian Greek dialect" ... — javi2541997

Same. Sorry about that! :sad:

Classical Greek culture, including philosophy, began in Ionia, whose name became the word for "Greek" in all the languages to the East,...
Interesting! Do you agree with his opinion? — javi2541997

It may well be so. I can't know.

The Cypriots apparently have therefore preserved, uniquely, the writing system of their Mycenaean ancestors. — javi2541997

Same.

Really sorry, Javi, that I cannot share your enthusiasm! :sad:

:up:

It is okay, friend. I appreciate your effort and consideration to at least have a look into the paper. I think my enthusiasm was out of control whenever I ended my reading because I am interested in Greece as much as I am in Japan. You are right that the paper contains more aspects of literature or history than philosophy itself.  Yet, I will be reading more stuff related to this topic: Greece, Cyprus, Macedonia and the origin of the Greek lexicon. Thus, I think my knowledge will be more extensive regarding to Ancient Literature. :smile:


In the same way, I read Kazantzakis. What a good discovery! :cool:

Cheers!

Kazantzakis — javi2541997

Yeah, good stuff! :up:

:up:

Kazantzakis's works can be considered as pure philosophical content, not only his amazing talent for writing novels and personalising characters! Thanks to Alkis, I discovered this author and, yes, what a good discovery. It reminds me of when I read Mishima the first time. :100: