I have not been following all the interchanges here, but I am curious where the taking of Kiev 'free of cost' idea refers to. Who spoke the quote marks, "for free."? — Paine
A failure to try to understand either, means parties cannot reach a diplomatic solution — Benkei
One factor pointing toward the status of taking Kyiv being a central goal at the beginning of the invasion is how the failure to do so has greatly diminished the utility of Belarus in the conflict.
One imagines that the situation in that country would be very different if it was now the favored access path to a Kiev ruled by a puppet government. — Paine
↪Benkei The Nazis had their perspective too. — Olivier5
My point is you're not going to shift a perspective by insisting it's wrong (or variants on that). — Benkei
People don't change perspective, most of times. Cf. any debate on TPF for evidence of that. — Olivier5
If there's no answer to step 3, then it seems to me at least Ukrainian welfare is not a consideration in this plan — boethius
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. — Churchill
if you don't understand why someone believes something, there's no chance of changing that perspective. — Benkei
That seems unarguable. But it is in general the case that wars are prosecuted on the basis that: — unenlightened
War is always 'to the death'. There is no other plan. The welfare plan involves health and safety officers and hospitals, not tanks and bombs. — unenlightened
Again, completely untrue. — boethius
3. Ukraine can't defeat Russia
What is the alternative to a compromise that takes into account Russia's unchangeable perspective and that Russia may accept? — boethius
Indeed. but you are not asking about what the truth is, but what the plan is. The plan is to win - the truth is everyone loses. — unenlightened
You might have to tell about your point 3 above to the Ukrainians, because they don't seem to be aware of it... Some 80% of them believe they can beat the Russians. — Olivier5
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