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Think about the 10 Commandments outside of their connection to religion. If everyone lived by only these 10 “rules” no one would be living in the streets. — ArielAssante

An extraordinary level of delusion is needed to assert this.

But too far off thread.

Indeed!

I am so aware of turning a blind eye to the suffering of others. I do feel guilty when I pretend someone
in need is not there. We have many beggars on our streets so this happens daily. To survive I just have to limit the people I engage with. That is why I become politically active from time to time. There is so much unmet human need out there that charitable organizations are not enough. Only the government is large enough organization to manage the problem, and the problem is increasing daily like global warming. This is overpopulation and I so regret religions that argue against the things we can do for birth control. — Athena

You did not create the circumstances that some people live in. You REALLY have to remind yourself that you are not responsible, WE ALL ARE. You are trying to hold your hands up to try to deflect some of the blows that are being rained down on some people. YOU ARE AT LEAST DOING THAT. Most people do less than you, a lot less than you, especially amongst those who DO have the power, position and wealth to make a significant difference. I fully agree that you should continue to try to get as much help as you can from ANY other group/organisation/network/individual you can, to try to alleviate some of the pressure on you. Even something as enigmatic as crowdfunding may be a source of help for you.

15,000 CHILDREN UNDER 5 years of age die EVERY DAY from preventable conditions such as hunger, curable/preventable disease etc. That's a Jewish holocaust EVERY YEAR! (15000x365=5475000).
Innocent children! We can't act like theists and say things like 'god works in mysterious ways.' But in truth, I think that only satisfies very few people. Probably only quite self-absorbed, narcissistic people.
We must try to do what people like you do and add our hands to your hands where and when we can.
It's very hard when we are trying to deflect waves coming towards people with our hands, but many hands make light work. You are a tiny row boat in an ocean of need, yet you will still try to pull one or two people out of the water, even risking yourself, falling into the water.
If there is a god and folks like you don't get into the heaven you imagine, then the vast majority of all who call themselves Christian or Moslem etc, etc ad nauseum, won't get in either, including most kings, queens, popes, priests, nuns, ministers, imams, guru's etc etc.

Athena: ‘I am sure your concern about the rules surely comes down to human values.’

Really?

Athena: ‘You put the rules first…

No. I put you first by providing information I thought may prevent you from becoming homeless.

Human values? Ha! No, I don’t think much about human values at all. These are the values that allow people, even very ill people to live in the streets.

Think about the 10 Commandments outside of their connection to religion. If everyone lived by only these 10 “rules” no one would be living in the streets. — ArielAssante

I like my grandmother's 3 rules better.

1. We respect everyone. It makes no difference if the other is a bum or the mayor because it is about our character. We are respectful people or we are not.

2. We protect the dignity of others.

3. We do everything with integrity

I just pulled a virtue card. Out of 52 virtues I pulled Generosity.

"Generosity is giving and sharing. It is giving freely because you want to, not with the idea of receiving a reward or a gift in return. Generosity is a quality of the spirit. It is an awareness that there is plenty for everyone. It is seeing an opportunity to share what you have and then giving just for the oy of giving. Generosity is one of the best ways to show love.

Signs of Success

I am practicing generosity when I...

Am thoughtful about the needs of others.
Notice when someone needs help.
Give freely without holding back.
Am willing to make sacrifices for others.
Use wisdom about sharing treasured belongings."

Ah ha, That last one could mean it is not wise for me to have someone in my home when that could lead to a problem for me.

An extraordinary level of delusion is needed to assert this.

But too far off thread. — Banno

Well, I do have thoughts along that line. I could just pray for everyone and make myself feel good without risking anything. Or I could argue why that doesn't work real well. And that IS behind why I started this thread and used the word "moral". It would be great if I could say a prayer and go on my way feeling that I have done all that needs to be done.

In a democracy, our laws and institutions, are based on what we believe and I believe what some people believe is part of the problem. God did not build Noah's ark and maybe He doesn't take care of everything, so we may need to identify problems and hopefully come to a consensus on how to resolve them.

Is it moral to leave disabled people on the streets to die?

You did not create the circumstances that some people live in. You REALLY have to remind yourself that you are not responsible, WE ALL ARE. You are trying to hold your hands up to try to deflect some of the blows that are being rained down on some people. YOU ARE AT LEAST DOING THAT. Most people do less than you, a lot less than you, especially amongst those who DO have the power, position and wealth to make a significant difference. I fully agree that you should continue to try to get as much help as you can from ANY other group/organisation/network/individual you can, to try to alleviate some of the pressure on you. Even something as enigmatic as crowdfunding may be a source of help for you.

15,000 CHILDREN UNDER 5 years of age die EVERY DAY from preventable conditions such as hunger, curable/preventable disease etc. That's a Jewish holocaust EVERY YEAR! (15000x365=5475000).
Innocent children! We can't act like theists and say things like 'god works in mysterious ways.' But in truth, I think that only satisfies very few people. Probably only quite self-absorbed, narcissistic people.
We must try to do what people like you do and add our hands to your hands where and when we can.
It's very hard when we are trying to deflect waves coming towards people with our hands, but many hands make light work. You are a tiny row boat in an ocean of need, yet you will still try to pull one or two people out of the water, even risking yourself, falling into the water.
If there is a god and folks like you don't get into the heaven you imagine, then the vast majority of all who call themselves Christian or Moslem etc, etc ad nauseum, won't get in either, including most kings, queens, popes, priests, nuns, ministers, imams, guru's etc etc. — universeness

Your point is made and now I have to act on it. I have emailed two local programs for people with brain damage. This looks like a good starting point.

I am a little excited because the homeless problem is so complex and huge, that I couldn't find a good resource for homeless people in general, but when this was reworded as a brain problem, there are places to turn. So if I begin with them, perhaps more could be done for those who are homeless because of mental issues. They need extra help because they don't have the cognitive ability to access the help that they are qualified to have.

My sister helps these people in another city. Her people are dying on the streets and we finally have a law to record deaths resulting from homelessness. We are not doing a good job of resolving the problems because we do not have a good understanding of them. There is so much to do. I wish I were thirty and had the energy to do more.

Attempt some crowdfunding and perhaps you could post the details here and perhaps some TPF members would contribute to a support fund. I would.
If I lived in Oregon I could help more, but I live in Scotland, so I do what I can when I can here and from here.

To my reckoning forced to be immoral is a contradictio in terminis. Coercion negates free will and where there is no freedom, there can be no morality.

Even so, we could bemoan such circumstances - it's stressful to say the least. Any system that puts people in such dilemmas needs to be put under the microscope because the problem won't go away by itself. @schopenhauer1 might have a thing or two to say about this from an antinatalist point of view: being forced to play the game of life full of dilemmas/trilemmas/n-lemmas like the one the OP is in is immoral and I'm being as positive as possible when I say that.

Even so, we could bemoan such circumstances - it's stressful to say the least. Any system that puts people in such dilemmas needs to be put under the microscope because the problem won't go away by itself. schopenhauer1 might have a thing or two to say about this from an antinatalist point of view: being forced to play the game of life full of dilemmas/trilemmas/n-lemmas like the one the OP is in is immoral and I'm being as positive as possible when I say that. — Agent Smith

Bingo. Life itself can be said to be immoral from the start.

Bingo. Life itself can be said to be immoral from the start. — schopenhauer1

So you've hit the bullseye! :up:

Question: Are antintalists oversensitive? On the flip side, do natalists have, as Hermione Granger says to Ronald Weasley, "the emotional range of a teaspoon"?

And we complain about cold, heartless logic.

Are antintalists oversensitive? — Agent Smith

Wrong question.. Rather, when is it ok to ever assume someone else needs to experience X bad experiences because you have a notion for them of what one should be able to tolerate and deal with?

Also, being that this world always has conflicts, it is morally disqualifying as it is built into the actual framework. There’s no way around it.

Wrong question.. Rather, when is it ok to ever assume someone else needs to experience X bad experiences because you have a notion for them of what one should be able to tolerate and deal with? — schopenhauer1

Everything hinges on the word "assume" I suppose. I believe there's actually a novel based on people making wrong assumptions about one another; the result is, you guessed it, disaster! If not, it looks a story plot Hollywood might be interested in (romantic tragicomedy).

Malus Deus?

It’s simply a political move. Someone envisions another person continuing on the current order and experiencing the current order. They voted yes to it. They voted for that other person.

It’s simply a political move. Someone envisions another person continuing on the current order and experiencing the current order. They voted yes to it. They voted for that other person. — schopenhauer1

Si, si! That you politicize antinatalism, probably other issues as well, hasn't escaped my notice. Perhaps because people's lives & happiness are at stake, they depend on, in a significant way, who calls the shots.

More widgets, more widgets. We need more widgets. Continuation of life is a political position as is its rejection. Vote nay. Conservatives see injustices with liberal policy. Liberals see injustices in conservative policy.

Can people find other ways to give their life meaning besides creating more wants and needs instantiated in yet another person?

So you believe that this is all politics! Is there a more fundamental point of origin, a radix, of our problems.

Did you know? Some say "suffering, what suffering?" Others, in the same friggin' room, go "this is hell!"

One of them is wrong! — Eddie Izzard

Earth is too big!

Is there a more fundamental point of origin, a radix, of our problems. — Agent Smith

The fundamental problem is baseline striving (necessary) suffering) and contingent negative experiences. The solution is quietude. Don’t replicate it. The error is replicating it.

But as to politics yes, people have a vision. The child is the means to that vision being carried out.

Parents get to fill their lives with meaning. Relatives get to extend their family. The tribe/society gets more workers and replication of culture.

Basically, the cost is (just) too high! However, we're comparatively more gifted in the brains department, oui? Surely the problem isn't an unsolvable one - we could, if we play our cards right, find not one but many solutions. Imagine that! From having our back against a wall to being able to do what we need to want!

Meanwhile ... what do we do? Avoid talking about the elephant in the room (dukkha)?

From having our back against a wall to being able to do what we need to want! — Agent Smith

Not so optimistic. Besides, a non-sequitor.

Meanwhile ... what do we do? Avoid talking about the elephant in the room (dukkha)? — Agent Smith

People just don’t connect it with birth itself.

:ok:

The only reason Judy married John was because she never met Jack?

The only reason Judy married John was because she never met Jack? — Agent Smith

Would she know the value of Jack?

Attempt some crowdfunding and perhaps you could post the details here and perhaps some TPF members would contribute to a support fund. I would.
If I lived in Oregon I could help more, but I live in Scotland, so I do what I can when I can here and from here. — universeness

Thank you. I started to do that but on second thought that may not be a good solution unless we first created a nonprofit organization and had a clear plan about what we want and how much it would cost.

My granddaughter is rather annoyed with me for acting as though the person I am trying to help is the most important person, and she has a point. She works at the shelter and deals with the homeless every day. We are experiencing a housing and human crisis. Disabled people get an income of less than $900 a month and just to rent a bedroom is $600 to $700 dollars. That is why they are on the street and there is a lot of them! The man I am trying to help is more physically capable than those who are in wheelchairs. I assume many of the street people also have mental problems. I was not wanting to help everyone, but how just is it for me to try to get my person to the head of the line, in front of everyone else?

It has been almost two weeks and that is the limit most property managers set on having a guest. This is where I stop allowing him to spend the night unless the property manager says it is okay for him to stay longer. He was pretty depressed when he left this morning because he knows he can not depend on me as he depended on a woman who passed away. If he could find another woman who could use some help and has an extra bedroom that would be wonderful. He is limited but he does try to be helpful and he expresses concern for the other person and a lot of appreciation. He is ideal for the right woman.

And this is why I pulled away from working with the homeless. There are just some people I can not stand to leave on the streets, and the only thing I can do is pretend they do not exist. My granddaughter is right. He is just the person who got through my wall of protection by being at the Senior Center and looking like one of "us" not one of "them". It he looked and acted like the other homeless people, I would have avoided him. He got through my wall of denial that what is happening is a real horror of unmet human needs.

Agent Smith

nailed in on the head. To cope with some things we must be able to block out the pain.

Would she know the value of Jack? — schopenhauer1

She might've if only she's been given the chance. There's more to it than just that though!

To my reckoning forced to be immoral is a contradictio in terminis. Coercion negates free will and where there is no freedom, there can be no morality.

Even so, we could bemoan such circumstances - it's stressful to say the least. Any system that puts people in such dilemmas needs to be put under the microscope because the problem won't go away by itself. schopenhauer1 might have a thing or two to say about this from an antinatalist point of view: being forced to play the game of life full of dilemmas/trilemmas/n-lemmas like the one the OP is in is immoral and I'm being as positive as possible when I say that. — Agent Smith

I so much appreciate your posts and I will address the state legislature about the moral dilemma, especially when a mother is evicted for helping an adult child. When our laws go against family values, they are wrong.

I have a 1940 Oregon Family Law book. Back in the day, we held family responsible for family. The responsibility did not end when someone became 18. The responsibility included the extended family and when people did not do the responsible thing of caring for family, the person could be fined. In the past, it was family I had to put on the streets. It is not homosexuals ruining family values, but industry, landlords, and government.

Please don't mention it! I'm rather surprised that you/anyone find(s) me posts worth the read.

what is happening is a real horror of unmet human needs. — Athena

I will back off Athena. I don't want it to seem like I am trying to manipulate your heartstrings to compel you to keep doing what you have always done. You have battled in support of those which our current society ignores and discards, you have done enough, regardless of what you decide to do next.

Not that I'm a psychologist, but methinks the brain blocks out the pain & evil in the world, locks it all up in a special place, deep in our subconscious in order to stay sane. — Agent Smith

This indeed is more or less how it works, based on my knowledge and working with people in the mental area. Im not a psychologist either, but this this is maybe better because I would had all sort of misconceptions about the mind! :grin:
Only, you see, "staying sane" is an illusion. It's a trick that the mind plays to us, to apparently avoid pain and thinking of undesirable things. One cannot be sane when one is blocking (suppressing) undesirable facts, events and things in general. This is an aberration. And it's the cause of mental illnesses.

I'm rather surprised that you/anyone find(s) me posts worth the read. — Agent Smith

So, you are maybe writing for the same reason I do: for the pleasure of writing! :grin:

So, you are maybe writing for the same reason I do: for the pleasure of writing! :grin: — Alkis Piskas

Hypergraphia, graphorrhea in my case. Not so in your case of course! Keep writin' - practise, I hear, makes perfect.