So really what is a man and what is a woman? — Susu
this is a prime example of someone who isn't patient enough to read carefully. — Susu
So really what is a man and what is a woman? Everyone seems to just have their own subjective definition of these terms, and there's really no definite answer. — Susu
There is no correlation between reproductive organs/chromosomes/hormones and gender identity. — Susu
However, what does it mean to be a man or a woman? — Susu
There is no correlation between reproductive organs/chromosomes/hormones and gender identity. Gender identity is a personal/psychological construct. — Susu
There's really no hard line between a man and a woman, which is why I decided non binary is the best pick for me. — Susu
For example, the congruence between Hispanic American groups may vary from Black American groups, or Middle Eastern groups from European groups, seniors from youth, etc. — Cartesian trigger-puppets
Are you saying that identity is entirely free choice? — Judaka
The issue is whether others accept the identity you choose, and the question here is the legitimacy of a choice to determine one's own gende — Judaka
If I identify as disabled but I'm not disabled in any way, you'll just accept that as part of my identity? If I tell you I identify as upper-class but I'm completely broke, you'll go forward thinking I'm part of the upper-class? — Judaka
But it'd be absurd for you to completely hand over the reins to me to allow me to dictate to you how you should view me. — Judaka
For gender identity, it's not about whether someone getting to decide what your "true" gender is, it's about the practical implications of being recognised and acknowledged as belonging to a particular gender. — Judaka
disabled status, class, appearance, ethnicity, language, hobbies, skills, occupations, culture, place of living, and way of living, — Judaka
There needs to be a general discussion to understand this so that we can decide how someone who isn't a male could assume a "male" identity, what the rules are for that and how it might work. — Judaka
I have an expectation that others are going to treat me as a male because I identify as a male and look like a male, I've never encountered any situation where it's been an issue for me. — Judaka
That's why ssu's question of "what does it mean to be a man or a woman" isn't resolved by explaining that people can just call themselves whatever they want. There needs to be a general discussion to understand this so that we can decide how someone who isn't biologically male could assume a "male" identity, what the rules are for that and how it might work etc. — Judaka
Why's that? — Moliere
For practical purposes, I'd say that for almost every part of one's personal identity we don't have to go about proving it to others. Notice your list: — Moliere
Might it be the case that people who have had to deal with being accepted might know a little more than someone whose always been accepted for exactly who they are and who never has to worry about proving who they are to others? — Moliere
Might it be the case that people who have had to deal with being accepted might know a little more than someone whose always been accepted for exactly who they are and who never has to worry about proving who they are to others?
— Moliere
Lol, everyone has experienced people not seeing them the way they see themselves. Everyone is relevant to the question of gender identity even if their gender identity has never been an issue to them. Because everyone is involved in recognising and acknowledging and treating people differently based on their gender identity. The rules for how gender identity should be determined, how we need to treat people based on their gender identity, what people are allowed to do based on their gender identity and all these and other related questions impact everyone — Judaka
↪Susu The 'indicators' of gender (clothes, accoutrements, tastes ) are available to all regardless of biological sex and often seem to me to be performance based. I generally avoid people who (to my taste) put too much time into their appearances, whether they present as male or female, mainly because in my experience it seems to be a harbinger of narcissistic tenancies (but not always). I guess this is a personal prejudice of mine — Tom Storm
↪Joshs
What does anything you just said have to do with my conversation with Molieire or anything I said? It just sounds like you're sulking about people disagreeing with you. — Judaka
Isn't it clear why would be a problem? — Judaka
You're really vastly underestimating how many different kinds of identities there are, not all of them are clear cut and some are quite contentious or hotly debated. — Judaka
There needs to be a general discussion to understand this so that we can decide how someone who isn't biologically male could assume a "male" identity, — Judaka
what the rules are for that and how it might work etc — Judaka
We have the right to think and evaluate the evidence and form our own opinions despite never having and never being able to experience being non-binary. People are capable of having a non-binary view of gender without experiencing it for themselves. — Judaka
Also, I don't think you're reiterating any point Molieire made — Judaka
I don't think so. But, then, I don't think of personal identity like you do. I'm not looking to define these things in order to pass judgment on who counts as who. That's exactly what I'm advising against. So where you say — Moliere
I'm saying we ought not debate personal identity. It's not up for debate because to debate someone's identity is dehumanizing. It puts someone in the position of proving their own existence. How could someone possibly do that? — Moliere
The rules, I suggest, is to treat others with enough respect that they need not prove themselves. Asking for proof of someone else's personal identity belittling -- it says to someone they are so ignorant that you know them better than they know themselves. — Moliere
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