First, it might help to define what life is. Death could simply be considered absence of life. Life must be more than mere chemical and physical matter, as it ceases upon death even though all the substances remains.
Suicide seems to be a selfish way to harm the people who are close to the person committing it. And a lack of thought of what life really is.

Life must be more than mere chemical and physical matter — Lone Wolf

proof?

Suicide seems to be a selfish way to harm the people who are close to the person committing it. And a lack of thought of what life really is. — Lone Wolf

there is no proof that others exist, or will continue to exist outside of sensory perception. That is a belief based on the consistency of how much the same sensory experiences occur.

For instance, every day you wake up go to the kitchen and see your mum in there. -> therefore, your mum exists... until you swallow the red pill and realise that she never existed, it was all an illusion you believed based on your education conditioning from a young age in to naive realism.

My advice is, if you are that miserable then just leave the party... BUT BEFORE YOU DO... make sure you talk to everyone, and try anything possible to try and get you back in the mood... and that includes large doses of psychedelic chemicals that have the power to re-enrich peoples perception and understanding of life.

Either way it is probable that after death it is a win win. If there is nothing, then that is great for there is no one to cast value on anything anymore. If there is something then thank god we are out of the human form and that there is something beyond this absurd creation called human existence.

What do you think is dying? — OareCine

This question, if you consider history, is a pervasive (irrespective of culture or geography) preoccupation of the human psyche. Many have probed this question and some are still, and the answers range from complete destruction, annihilation to everlasting happiness in a place called paradise. These ''answers'' have a basis ranging from cold, impersonal reason to unbridled wishful thinking. To cut the story short we simply don't know. This is both good and bad. Good because we may, each one of us, initiate our own inquiry into the matter - the infinite possibilities we can explore can fruitfully engage our minds. Bad because such an important question that has relevance in the way we live our lives remains, sadly, unanswered.

proof? — intrapersona

The rest of my sentence (Life must be more than chemical and physical matter, as it ceases upon death event though all the substances remain) is what I based my speculations on, as there is no known scientific evidence regarding what allows life to continue. Life from nonliving matter has never been recreated in a lab.

there is no proof that others exist, or will continue to exist outside of sensory perception. That is a belief based on the consistency of how much the same sensory experiences occur.

For instance, every day you wake up go to the kitchen and see your mum in there. -> therefore, your mum exists... until you swallow the red pill and realise that she never existed, it was all an illusion you believed based on your education conditioning from a young age in to naive realism.

My advice is, if you are that miserable then just leave the party... BUT BEFORE YOU DO... make sure you talk to everyone, and try anything possible to try and get you back in the mood... and that includes large doses of psychedelic chemicals that have the power to re-enrich peoples perception and understanding of life.

Either way it is probable that after death it is a win win. If there is nothing, then that is great for there is no one to cast value on anything anymore. If there is something then thank god we are out of the human form and that there is something beyond this absurd creation called human existence.

Nonetheless, as information cannot be created nor destroyed, your mother obviously existed, even if it was just in the form of information. The theory is questionable in other ways; as humans would have never discovered anything beyond that of what was expected. Humans are not that creative to have thought of the everything in the universe, nor in such detail. By that system, we should still be believing the world is flat because that would have been our sensory perception.


As for committing suicide provided a lack of desire to continue to live, one had best be very sure that there is indeed nothing more after life or that it is good to be dead, as there is no way to reverse it. It is a final decision. What happens after death cannot be studied, therefore a way to prove any speculation remains impossible. Also, for those who believe in an after life, one has no way to know if the next form will be any better than the one we are in now.

as it ceases upon death event though all the substances remain) is what I based my speculations on, as there is no known scientific evidence regarding what allows life to continue. Life from nonliving matter has never been recreated in a lab. — Lone Wolf

You don't know whether substances remain. All you know is a vantage point from which you see other people disappearing and "apparent" energy being re-used and re-utilized by the universe. If you hypothetically knew reality existed in the way you conceive it currently and had grounds and evidence for it then sure, but at the moment your assertion that life must be more than matter because matter is never destroyed is not supported. You are confined to subjectivity and your postulations unto objectivity about the nature of it is only speculation derived from a limited understanding of the functions of the universe.

Nonetheless, as information cannot be created nor destroyed, your mother obviously existed, even if it was just in the form of information. — Lone Wolf

When you use the term "your mother" it doesn't have the same meaning as what I thought was my mother so therefore it is not my mother. In other words, if i think my mother is part of a physical reality with her occupying her own body with her own experience then that is NOT the same thing as her just being information like a computer code. Completely different.

The theory is questionable in other ways; as humans would have never discovered anything beyond that of what was expected. Humans are not that creative to have thought of the everything in the universe, nor in such detail. By that system, we should still be believing the world is flat because that would have been our sensory perception. — Lone Wolf

Yeah, agreed. The issue though is that believing in flat-earth theory uses assumptions based of sensory information. Believing that reality exist the way we assume it does is using assumptions based of sensory information and a few techno gadgets that are made FROM our conceptions of how we perceive reality that we use to confirm that our conception of reality is correct (minus disciplines like quantum-physics which very few know what the fark is going on).

Also, for those who believe in an after life, one has no way to know if the next form will be any better than the one we are in now. — Lone Wolf

The undiscovered country from whose bourn. No traveler returns, puzzles the will. And makes us rather bear those ills we have. Than fly to others that we know not of.

I am surprised by the number of people expressing their surprise at Anthony Bourdain's death.

"He always seemed so full of life.”

Actually, I always saw someone more thoughtful and somber. But even if someone was always outwardly happy and energetic, what do people expect? Do you think anyone who is fed up with life, or maybe just bored by it, has to sit in a corner, crying?

Another reaction that pisses me off is the jump to a “mental health issue”, often insinuating that he should have sought “help” and if he had done so, he would still be alive. It’s nobody’s bloody business if someone else wants to be alive or not. It’s their decision and their decision alone. The reason may not necessarily be a troubling psychological issue. The decision to end one’s life at a time and in a manner of one’s own choosing can be perfectly rational. I actually have a lot of respect for people who make that ultimate decision.

As always, people are looking for signs... "How could we have spotted it?”, apparently believing there is one tell-tale sign for someone harboring thoughts of suicide. There isn’t, and until people understand that not everyone thinks like them, they won’t ever be ready to spot those signs. If it’s possible at all. Because where someone sees a fulfilled life, someone else doesn’t. Where someone sees a point in living, someone else is bored. Where someone is afraid of death, someone else knows that suicide is the one decision you will never regret.

And don’t ever be distracted by someone’s “adventurous attitude” to life. After all, seeking out adventures (and eating crazy food) is a way of gambling with death every day and every dish.

Sometimes, I have the feeling as if suicide by adventure is the only socially accepted form of suicide.

:up:

Culture is most certainly a sublimation of death anxiety. Suicide is a tabu subject because the strength to face another day often comes from a group-think "everyone else is doing it." There is inertia to living, and it's put in check when someone kills themselves. The unspeakable option reveals itself as "there", as always being "there". Death is always a tragedy, but a suicide's death is marred with controversy.

"He always seemed so full of life" is quite simply a means for people to reassure themselves they are not to blame, that there's "nothing they could do", that it's the suicide's own fault for being suicidal. Same goes with referring suicides to suicide hotlines - "Here! Call this number so I don't have to deal with you anymore!" The failure to use suicide hotlines is construed as a failure of the suicidal person. The worst case of misunderstanding seems to be with the insistence that by simply throwing pleasures at someone, their problems will magically disappear. Telling someone "but your life is so gooooood!" or "look at all you haaaaaave!" or "you have so much to look forward tooooooooo!" insults the authority a person has over their life.

There are few things I staunchly believe in; one of these things is the unalienable right of any person to end their life when they see fit. The subjective, personal life of an individual is magnitudes greater in depth and complexity than anything else and it deserves absolute respect.

Another reaction that pisses me off is the jump to a “mental health issue”, often insinuating that he should have sought “help” and if he had done so, he would still be alive. It’s nobody’s bloody business if someone else wants to be alive or not. It’s their decision and their decision alone. The reason may not necessarily be a troubling psychological issue. — Vinson

Yes, I agree, and this same reasoning is exactly what absolutely infuriates me about the idiotic cliche belief everyone seems to hold that suicide is a "selfish" act. Like, one person felt for whatever reason that they could not or would not go on living, while the other person has so little disregard for that person's will to die that they wish that other person to be trapped in life, and somehow the suicidal person is the selfish one in that equation.

Suicide is a tabu subject because the strength to face another day often comes from a group-think "everyone else is doing it." — darthbarracuda

For me, as with many others, the option of suicide is precisely what gives me the strength to face life. I've never felt genuinely suicidal because of this. Were it not an option, life would be much more of a burden -- I feel liberated to take risks and live the life I want because of this option.

But what I'd like your insight on -- since you are spot on in your post yet don't bring this up -- is how the empowering aspect of suicide is also a tabu subject. Like, my impression is that anyone with my philosophy of suicide who brings this thought up to people is immediately scolded to seek counseling, not to live alone, etc. And if you try to argue the point the mere desire to think abstractly about suicide is taken to be a sort of perversity; like, the group-think doesn't need to give you reasons, the demand for reasons betrays you as a headcase in need of re-programming.

I have found that indulging in the idealization of suicide presents a person with a conundrum as to what to do next in life. I have had my bouts of thinking about it; but, have always come to my senses that I would create more unhappiness in the world than otherwise. Without condemning or judging, I feel that the recent case of Anthony Bourdain was a typical case of a hedonist reaching his peak and realizing that there is no more pleasure to be derived from life.

There's no correct answer here, and in many instances some people decide to live their lives with that idealized intent in the back of their minds. But, to do so seems to remove the 100% purposeful desire of any actualized activity in life. In other words, life seems to be a matter of getting by instead of realizing intents and desires about some matter or goal. And even if they do get realized, their appreciation is diminished by the lackluster-haphazard lifeless intent.

You either commit or not.

Actually, I always saw someone more thoughtful and somber. — Vinson

Yes, he was so thoughtful that he decided to kill himself along with all of his thoughts, :chin:

Do you think anyone who is fed up with life, or maybe just bored by it, has to sit in a corner, crying? — Vinson

So bored he left his daughter now crying in a corner. What a guy.

Another reaction that pisses me off is the jump to a “mental health issue”, often insinuating that he should have sought “help” and if he had done so, he would still be alive. — Vinson

I think it's very likely that anyone who kills themselves in spite of their family and friends is indeed ill. Furthermore, the crux of self deception is not being able to understand that you're deceiving yourself with untruths. Helping someone break free from self deception is noble, not a vice.

It’s nobody’s bloody business if someone else wants to be alive or not. — Vinson

I can tell you've never loved anyone in your entire life.

It’s their decision and their decision alone. — Vinson

If my estimation is right, then your linking of Benatar in the past means that you're probably a wrist slitting antinatalist who hates himself and everyone else. Am I wrong, or have I a skewed view on your nihilism?

The reason may not necessarily be a troubling psychological issue. The decision to end one’s life at a time and in a manner of one’s own choosing can be perfectly rational. — Vinson

Having reasons is categorically different from acting rationally, sorry, try again.

I actually have a lot of respect for people who make that ultimate decision. — Vinson

You have a lot of respect for people who kill themselves? By the nine divines I hope you cultivate a little self worth, otherwise yOU mIGhT eNd Up DeAd.

As always, people are looking for signs — Vinson

Let's see here, so, Anthony Bourdain: snorted cocaine, shot heroine, smoked x, y, z other drugs including tobacco, drank enough to be an alcoholic, traveled around the world living out of motels, ate whatever tasted good, and slept with whomever looked good. Heck...WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?!?! I NEED MOAR SIGNS!!!

There isn’t, and until people understand that not everyone thinks like them, they won’t ever be ready to spot those signs. — Vinson

Yep, gotta get ready to spot those signs even though "it’s nobody’s bloody business if someone else wants to be alive or not." :100: :ok: :eyes:

If it’s possible at all. — Vinson

Probably not possible for you, seeing as you've all but given up on reading the signs, either in yourself or in others.

Because where someone sees a fulfilled life, someone else doesn’t. Where someone sees a point in living, someone else is bored. — Vinson

Where you think you're a special snowflake, I see an ignoramus. Tomato, tomahto, y'know?

Where someone is afraid of death, someone else knows that suicide is the one decision you will never regret. — Vinson

You know that....hold on, sit down and look at me first. There, good. Okay, so you know that one can not be afraid of death and not suicidal, right? No? Oh.

And don’t ever be distracted by someone’s “adventurous attitude” to life. After all, seeking out adventures (and eating crazy food) is a way of gambling with death every day and every dish. — Vinson

Yeah, it's a goddamned odyssey when I pour milk on my cereal. Shit keeps me going, man. The way my rice krispies crackle and pop, fuck it's orgasmic. After all, an adventure a day keeps the hangman away, :death: :up:

Sometimes, I have the feeling as if suicide by adventure is the only socially accepted form of suicide. — Vinson

Intellectual suicide goes on every day, every where. People can't get enough of it.

Thanks for sharing, Q.

No one asked for a shitty metaphor, but to me suicide is like scoring an own goal in sports. You're definitely scoring, but you're also punishing yourself, your teammates, and the game as a whole. I think a lot of suicidal people just want to score, no matter how they do it, and don't want to think about a draw, or the possibility of winning the game. And although I don't think that life's just a game, if someone's able to idealize and romanticize suicide and death, then they have it in them to channel those same ideals and romances into living a life worth living.

Intellectual suicide goes on every day, every where. People can't get enough of it. — Buxtebuddha

Wonderful post. Passionate, funny, smart, sane, sarcastic, humane.

Buxte does have his moments. :cool:

Telling someone "but your life is so gooooood!" or "look at all you haaaaaave!" or "you have so much to look forward tooooooooo!" insults the authority a person has over their life. — darthbarracuda

First of all, you misspelled good, have, and to. For many people who commit suicide, it is not a rational choice. I'm guessing very few weigh their options, apply reason, and conclude to exercise their authority over their lives. They're desperate.

If it's time to go. If your kids are grown. Knock yourself out.

What means to die? Personally, i don t think that i will truly die; because that matter that i am (the body), will become something different, like ground, worms or whatever and that in our time that we perceive, will become another, something (like combining my atoms with another ones resulting something). — OareCine

It's true that you'll never die, but it's got nothing to do with the persistence of your carcass or its atoms.

You won't die. You'll go to sleep. "To sleep, perchance to dream", as Shakespeare pointed out.

The nature of that dream depends on your predispositions.

I suggest that if, at the end of this life, the reason why you're in a life remains, then you'll be in a life again.

You'll go to sleep, and then later you'll find yourself in a life starting out, quite bewildered, with very little or no idea of anything that came before.

In fact, in that next life, any such thing as previous lives will be, not only unknowable, but also completely indeterminate, neither true or not true. ...just as it is now.

But humans are more than a biological body that will become another kind of matter.

Yes.

There is consciousness...and i don t know what is it

It's (You're) the experiencer and protagonist of your life-experience story, an "insubstantial" hypothetical story, which is entirely for you and about your experience.

, but how consciousness dies?

No.

Well, i am not kinda into religious beliefs or life after death but they are welcome just to see another perspective.

Religion is outside the verbal discussion & description realm of metaphysics.

Aristotle said that Good is the basis of what is. Not an assertion, but an impression, and that isn't discussable, describable, provable, arguable or assertable--in other words, isn't metaphysical.

About suicide... There is no reason to live if you don t agree with people that are against suicide.

I disagree.

There's a reason why you're in a life.

(It's because there's a hypothetical life-experience story with you someone like you (You, actually) as its protagonist. ...someone who needs, wants, or at least is predisposed to, life.)

So you're here, in a life, to address those needs, wants, inclinations and predispositions.

That's true regardless of whom you agree with or disagree with.

I wonder why suicide is so obsessive.

It's sometimes mistakenly perceived as a tempting evasion. Evasion won't get you anywhere. You're here for a reason, and that doesn't consist of evading. Suicide is a big mistake, and only makes things significantly worse.

(Ending one's life for a justifiable medical reason, because of a significant material medical loss of life-quality--I don't call that "suicide".)

Is that I want to see what is it after death

If you get there by suicide, I assure you that you won't like what it's like.

or just i was disappointed in life

Life can include (apparent) loss.

Life just starting out is new, bewildering, intense, and, at that time, we pretty-much don't know what we're doing, especially in regards to protecting ourselves in a hostile environment.

Life just starting out is vulnerable. (...and of course some vulnerability to harm and loss remain throughout life too.) Throughout the animal and plant kingdoms, new life often doesn't make it. That's just how it is.

Life just starting out...we all had/were that. Maybe we made it, maybe not. That's just one life. In reality, there's no such thing as losing or missing anything. As I discuss in other postings, it's all insubstantial and hypothetical anyway, so what's to lose?

Nisargadatta said that, from the point of view of the sage, nothing has ever happened..

There was a song ("The Rock and Roll Gypsies") in 1966 that said:

"To the motherless children who ride, on the shadowless highway of night,

"It's all just a game, it's all just the same, for the winner takes nothing and the loser gets all that remains."

...which could be considered a '60s re-wording of what I was saying above in this post.

Disappointment is the result of unrealistic expectations.

What do you think is dying?

There's no dying...just going to sleep.

Becoming something else?

I suggest that, for most people, it eventually leads into a next life, in which you won't remember the previous one.

A passing between two worlds or many others?

Sure, sequentially, according to Hinduism and Buddhism (and which i agree with).

Complete nothingness like you came from nothing

Emphatically no. There's no experience of complete nothingness. You never experience an absense of experience.

(you don t remember what you were before birth, if you were.

Quite so. Newness and bewilderment, without clear memory of a past.

Suicide is like the tool for discovering what is it after „death”

If you find out in that way, you won't like what you find.

Everyone will find out what the end of life is like, when it's time to.

When it's time for it, that going to sleep isn't a bad thing at all.

or is an act of courage or cowardice

I woudn't call it either of those things.

...because you were not satisfied with your life?

There are people at this forum who express that dis-satisfaction. Of course you aren't satisfied. That's why you were born. It's why you're in a life. Most people probably won't really be satisfied at the end of this life either, and that's ok. But, in each life, we deal with the situation as best we can, to meet our needs and to live right, to the extent that we're able..

But, emphatically, it wouldn't accomplish anything to reject life. That certainly isn't what we're here for.

Hindusm says that life doesn't and needn't have any purpose or reason other than "Lila", which means "Play".

...but of course right-living means living considerately too.

It's said that we keep returning to a life for as long as we lack personal life-completion, and perfection of lifestyle. ...which, for most of us, is many lifetimes away. No problem.

Evidently, in previous lives, if there were any, there was some way in which you hadn't achieved life-completion or lifestyle-perfection--there was something incomplete about your lives. So you're here again. So we just do our best while here.

Michael Ossipoff

Is suicide the weak man's way out or the brave man's way in?

Is suicide the weak man's way out or the brave man's way in? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I thought of this paradox before and I don't recall any good replies.

A suicidal person's reasoning:

1. Life is too painful.
2. If life is too painful then I should take my own life
Therefore
3. I should take my own life

Non-suicidal person's logic:
Argument A
1. If x commits suicide then x is a coward (can't face life)
2. x commits suicide
Therefore
3. x is a coward

Argument B
1. If x commits suicide then x is brave (can face death)
2. x commits suicide
Therefore
3. x is brave

The point is the suicidal person's reasoning is closer to argument A than B. So, a suicidal person must be a coward.

The usual event of death is at the end of enduring pain. To say it is cowardly to end one''s own life because one cannot any longer endure the pain then it is like saying it is cowardly to be in pain.

Suicide is not an easy way out. Cowardliness is suggestive of looking for easy ways (like stealing rather than working, for example).

In to what?

Into the other side such as Heaven as thought to be for many or just out of this reality into the one that they have created in their minds.

Right. I don't know. If we don't know what exists, if anything, "on the other side", is it wise for us to encourage suicidal people, positively or negatively, to make one choice or the other, considering we lack certainty about what exists "on the other side"? Is it wise to hint that suicide is courageous, or to admonish that it's cowardly? Is either statement wise, or helpful?

The usual event of death is at the end of enduring pain. To say it is cowardly to end one''s own life because one cannot any longer endure the pain then it is like saying it is cowardly to be in pain.

Suicide is not an easy way out. Cowardliness is suggestive of looking for easy ways (like stealing rather than working, for example). — raza

Death has clouded your thoughts on the matter. Forget the suicide and death link for thr moment and just focus on the truth that the suicidal person is looking for the easier way out. I guess we could call the suicide a good decision but not brave.

What brings you to the conclusion that the suicidal person is looking for the easier way out?

Death has clouded your thoughts on the matter — TheMadFool

Has it just.

I guess we could call the suicide a good decision but not brave. — TheMadFool

I haven't determined it as brave

I merely see it as one of countless ways of becoming dead. Brave or cowardly are unnecessary judgement statements.

To judge it in the negative is like judging a mental illness or mental breakdown as cowardly.

I've spent a lot of time encouraging people to talk themselves out of suicide. If the alternative is as awful as it sometimes seems, people don't need talking into it, I think. I doubt there is anything after physical death, but I don't think we can base much on that or the opposite possibility. My own notion of logic suggests that we'd never have started on this business, but it seems to include a very strong internal pressure to keep at it, doesn't it?

In personal experience, having (what could be termed) a psychological breakdown brought me closer to the point of suicide. It also presented the way back into life. Similar to a sweeping arc that goes close to the fire, but then leads away from it. A breakdown can be ultimately beneficial if the psyche is then to some degree “re-built” on sturdier or more sustainable ground, so to speak metaphorically.

In retrospect, there seems to be two main decisive points for a person in emotional crisis or depression. First is the recognition that something is going on and responding to it. Denial and repression of feelings might just intensify the crisis and pain. This is analogous to Elisabeth Kübler-Ross’s theory on the stages of grief. Once acceptance sets in, the process of breaking down and eventually rebuilding the identity can occur. But this is easier said than done. At many points of the process, there is vulnerability and a chance to slip into madness (for lack of a better word).

The entire affair might feel to the individual like walking a tightrope across a river in the middle of an ice storm. But when that seems like the best or maybe the only way, then the risks must borne. The whole scenario and drama may be psychological, but as a whole is not non-existent or merely imagined.

The rest of my sentence (Life must be more than chemical and physical matter, as it ceases upon death event though all the substances remain) is what I based my speculations on, as there is no known scientific evidence regarding what allows life to continue. Life from nonliving matter has never been recreated in a lab. — Lone Wolf

I agree. And I think it is bad form to ask for proof when one knows no such proof is forthcoming or that the opposite is equally unprovable. Philosophy is not science. Every time a philosophical theory reaches a point where its claims are empirically provable, it ceases to be philosophy and becomes a form of science. But without philosophy, there is no avenue for entertaining those theories that eventually become empirically provable, i.e,. branches of science. It is anti-philosophical to apply scientific criteria to philosophical discussions. You made a philosophical claim supported by reason. Nothing more is required. Some people are uncomfortable dealing with that which can not be empirically proven true or false. Oh well.

I haven't determined it as brave

I merely see it as one of countless ways of becoming dead. Brave or cowardly are unnecessary judgement statements.

To judge it in the negative is like judging a mental illness or mental breakdown as cowardly. — raza

The lens we use to view an event or object is our choice but without viewing something from all angles we deprive ourselves.

What brings you to the conclusion that the suicidal person is looking for the easier way out? — Noble Dust

Suicide is a reasoned act usually brought about through a severity in circumstances. In India farmers commit suicide when they're unable to pay their debts. Isn't such a decision like water flowing down a mountain - finding the easiest route to the sea?