I don't think it is a stretch from philosophy to say this (do they call it realism? Not sure. Maybe I can be schooled on that). But let's just cut to the nut: We are taking other's money against their will under threat of force. If they don't like it, they can get the fuck out. The door is open, they are free to leave. It's not like we captured them, chained them, threw them on a ship and brought them here against their will. It's not like they were living here, minding their own business on their land, and we invaded their land, threw them on a reservation and stole all their shit. Oh, and if they are not Americans, living in America, and think this analysis doesn't apply to them? It does. We don't care where they live. It applies there too. Just ask those who tax.

P.S. In the mean time, they can quit using our shit. That would be hypocrisy, would it not?

Incorrect. — Caldwell

:100:

You did do all of that. You enslaved human beings, committed genocide, transferred their wealth to yourself, and used the funds to consolidate your power and spread war.

You did do all of that. You enslaved human beings, committed genocide, transferred their wealth to yourself, and used the funds to consolidate your power and spread war. — NOS4A2

I didn't do any of that. But I damn sure benefited from it, as did you and everyone else in the world.

Spain plans to raise taxes for rich, make lower earners pay less. Government says temporary wealth tax will raise €3B


Our treasury minister planned the so-called “solidarity tax” which consists on:

Two-year wealth tax that would apply to those who own more than €3 million in assets. The scheme would see around 23,000 people paying on a scale of between 1.7% and 3.5% of their riches in extraordinary taxes, according to the plan.

With that wealth tax, Spain hopes to raise around €1.5 billion annually from the country’s 0.1% most affluent segment.

In parallel, those earning more than €200,000 per year would see income taxes raised by one percentage point.

Meanwhile, small companies earning less than €1 million per year would see taxes decrease from 25% to 23% (23% of your revenue applied to taxes is still a lot...)

I still think we pay a lot of taxes here and in the other hand those benefits not always are good managed by the government.

Taxes, they say, are required to run the government, for upkeep of basic services, to finance (new) projects that benefit the community, you get the idea.

Syād, if people are grumbling about taxes it means the government hasn't quite explained the rationale behind taxes. If income tax is say x%, the powers that be have to provide an exegesis on why x% and not y% or z%. If taxes vary with income, this too has to be thoroughly worked out and made public. If this isn't done, you'll never see the end of complaints about taxes. :snicker:

if people are grumbling about taxes it means the government hasn't quite explained the rationale behind taxes. — Agent Smith

They never explain the rationale behind the taxes because they have the risk of losing votes. This is what makes me upset... The public expenditure only cares when national elections are coming up.

Syād, if governments can play around with taxes to win votes, it means taxes have no logic to them. I would recommend that taxes be well-reasoned to, eliminating a powerful bargaining chip from the politicians' arsenal.

if governments can play around with taxes to win votes, it means taxes have no logic to them — Agent Smith

Agreed! :up:

Syād — Agent Smith

I don't understand what does it mean but I like when you use that word

The forceful transfer of wealth from private to state hands is one of the less talked about tyrannies in human history. A little math might explain the apparent arbitrariness of the amount of taxation, and a budget of some sort might explain what the state plans to do with its newly found wealth, but nothing can explain away the unjust transfer of wealth, the outright theft, that is taxation.

A company earning more than a million has to give a quarter of what it earns to your government. To cover that cost while at the same time covering the overhead the best one can do is lower wages, raise prices, cut corners, lay people off, and so on, just to be able to pay such exorbitant prices. Even if we let the state get away with the act of theft, it’s hard to look past the effects all this has on the poorer among us who have to deal with the rise in the cost of living, a large amount of which is used to cover any offsetting. A tax on the rich is also a hidden tax on the poor, in this sense.

A company earning more than a million has to give a quarter of what it earns to your government. — NOS4A2

Yes and I think it is abusive. Nonetheless, socialists say this is the right thing to do... because the rich and businessmen need to be solidary with the working class or the poorest (meanwhile those taxes always end up to cover the costs of minorities... But this is a subject of a different topic). My country is a example of what happens when political correctness is in power.

To cover that cost while at the same time covering the overhead the best one can do is lower wages, raise prices, cut corners, lay people off, and so on, just to be able to pay such exorbitant prices. Even if we let the state get away with the act of theft, it’s hard to look past the effects all this has on the poorer among us who have to deal with the rise in the cost of living, a large amount of which is used to cover any offsetting. A tax on the rich is also a hidden tax on the poor, in this sense. — NOS4A2

Conclusion: The state creates a thief model which pick up the private earnings of both businessman and workers to just feed their political lobbies.

Spain does the common sense thing. Good for them.

Oh, and:

Taxation isn’t theft.

The problem is plutocracy. All the rest is window dressing.

Spain does the common sense thing. Good for them. — Xtrix

Common sense is to pay 23 % of your earnings in taxes? I would call it expropriation, and that's what happens when political correctness rule a country.

Classical Marxism defines workers and peasants as virtuous and the bourgeoisie (the
middle class) and other owners of capital as evil. — Breivik

Taxing the rich more is common sense, yes.

They should be paying even more. Or production should be nationalized— better than what we have now. My own aim is to have the workers take over production.

Political correctness has nothing to do with it.

Yes and I think it is abusive. Nonetheless, socialists say this is the right thing to do... because the rich and businessmen need to be solidary with the working class or the poorest (meanwhile those taxes always end up to cover the costs of minorities... But this is a subject of a different topic). My country is a example of what happens when political correctness is in power.

It’s odd reasoning, if there is any reasoning in it at all. Solidarity with the working class will never result from raising someone’s taxes. It’s pure socialist propaganda.

I noticed they are slashing the 10% sales tax for feminine hygiene products. You’re right. Political correctness is in power.

Taxing the rich more is common sense, yes. — Xtrix

But who do you consider as "rich"? Because those tax payers barely holds around 200.000 € in the bank. I consider them as a middle class workers not rich or millionaires.

I noticed they are slashing the 10% sales tax for feminine hygiene products. You’re right. Political correctness is in power. — NOS4A2

Completely. Political correctness is a big problem inside a country's administration. It is a wasteful pit without control. There is a public administration called "equality ministry" and this lobby has promoted a law that when women has the period they have the right to stay at home until it finishes... imagine the recession of many industries which have female workers in.

But who do you consider as "rich"? — javi2541997

“Two-year wealth tax that would apply to those who own more than €3 million in assets. The scheme would see around 23,000 people paying on a scale of between 1.7% and 3.5% of their riches in extraordinary taxes, according to the plan.”

I consider them rich. And they should be taxed much more.

Better yet, let the workers run the factories and companies themselves.

It’s no surprise that those who favor plutocracy— and who are anti-democratic through and through — find ways to condemn anything that benefits the majority of the country, or the world.

Now it’s “political correctness.” Come on.

Better yet, let the workers run the factories and companies themselves. — Xtrix

I see it as impossible. Every factory or company needs a hierarchical structure. You can run a company when you know how to do it because you have a big knowledge on economics, law, strategy, etc... it is not so easy. I think it is populist to say that "all the owners or stakeholders are abusers of working class". That's not true.
Imagine you start a company based on print books. You need to hire some workers to help you to produce X number of copies. Are you a "tyrant" if you perceive more revenue than the workers when the company is yours? Come on...

I consider them rich. And they should be taxed much more. — Xtrix

Facts: INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND.

GDP of USA: $25.35 trillion.

GDP of Spain: $1.435 trillion.

The GDP of your country is 24 points bigger than mine.

Do you still think a country ruled by socialism is a good idea? Taxing factories is common sense? Where? We are just a soft country with a mediocre economy.

Syād/Syat = Maybe/Perchance/Perhaps.

Visit anekantavada (non-one-sidedness) page, Wikipedia, for more.

Syād/Syat = Maybe/Perchance/Perhaps — Agent Smith

Interesting terminology! :up:

Interesting terminology! — javi2541997

I'm a big fan of skepticism. :grin:

I'm a big fan of skepticism — Agent Smith

Understandble and you are in the right path. It is normal to be sceptical in nowadays due to the spread of fake news in media and press.

Gracias for the kind words. According to Pyrrhonists, skepticism is supposed to lead to inner peace (ataraxia), but speaking from experience, I'd havta go with Augustine who said doubt can't be a pleasant state of mind.

I see it as impossible. Every factory or company needs a hierarchical structure. — javi2541997

Yeah but that’s mostly nonsense. You don’t need a plutocracy. You need organization and structure, sure. Perhaps even a hierarchy of responsibilities and roles — but one that’s set with worker input. Mondragon is a good example. Co ops generally are a good model.

So not only possible, but already done.

The GDP of your country is 24 points bigger than mine.

Do you still think a country ruled by socialism is a good idea? — javi2541997

What does GDP have to do with anything? China has a bigger GDP too— so what? Should we be ruled by authoritarianism?

“Socialism” has become rather meaningless. The US has PLENTY of socialism— for the wealthy.

What does GDP have to do with anything? — Xtrix

I have used it as an economical fact where it shows why some countries are wealthier than others. USA is an example that a country can works with private ownership and a few taxes because it is clearly a world leader towards industry and technology. Meanwhile, in Spain you would not get rich or wealthy. Our government is against private property and stakeholders.
Imagine the United States Secretary of the Treasury saying to Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Zuckerberg, Real State owners, etc... to pay 23 or 25 % of their revenue in taxes. That would be expropriation and your country would not be as rich as it is nowadays.
Trust me: expropriation and tax abuse doesn't work. Just look at Latin American or ex Soviet countries.

China has a bigger GDP too— so what? Should we be ruled by authoritarianism? — Xtrix

It is a Rara avis country. They do not even know what they really are. Nevertheless, they are the primarily leaders of worldwide providers and suppliers. They created a very complex economical structure. China is subject of a different topic.

USA is an example that a country can works with private ownership and a few taxes because it is clearly a world leader towards industry and technology. Meanwhile, in Spain you would not get rich or wealthy. Our government is against private property and stakeholders. — javi2541997

Neither is true. The US has socialism for the wealthy— whether it’s a leader in anything anymore is questionable.

China has high GDP too. By your argument, that should count for something and perhaps we should model ourselves after them.

They do not even know what they really are. — javi2541997

It’s kind of ridiculous that on the one hand we’re supposed to accept that the US (and any other supposed “successful” country) is “capitalist,” but when China is mentioned things suddenly become very fuzzy. “Who knows what they are.” They know: they’re communist.

The US is far more socialist than China. The bailouts they’ve given to private tyrannies is second to none. There’s been a wealth transfer of 20+ trillion dollars over the last 40 years to the top .1%. That’s real socialism for you. If only we had given them a taste of “free market capitalism.”

Imagine the United States Secretary of the Treasury saying to Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Zuckerberg, Real State owners, etc... to pay 23 or 25 % of their revenue in taxes. — javi2541997

I don’t have to imagine. The corporate tax rate in the US has averaged about 32%, and at one point the income tax for individuals making $1.7 million or couples making $3.4 million (adjusted for todays dollars) was upwards of 94%. The top rate today is about 39%.

But the wealthy always find ways around these taxes.

When society is being destroyed so that a few people can have more money than the bottom 50% of the WORLD population, I’d say it’s time to do something. Higher taxes on wealth is a good start. I hear no alternative suggestions from you.

They know: they’re communist. — Xtrix

No. They are not communist since the 1990s. The Chinese economic reform or reform and opening-up is the program of economic reforms termed "Socialism (?) with Chinese characteristics" led by Deng Xiaoping, often credited as the "General Architect". In 2010, China overtook Japan as the world's second-largest economy by nominal GDP and in 2017 overtook the United States by becoming the world's largest economy by GDP. Only a capitalist country can reach such improvements in just two decades.

Higher taxes on wealth is a good start. I hear no alternative suggestions from you. — Xtrix

It is not a good start and here is another solution I put on the table: spending cuts

If we are living difficult times with inflation and prices rising, it is time to remove all the things that make debt to the state's budget. So, it is needed to reduce the public expenditure.
For example: Highways and transport (instead of 5 buses, we only let 3 buses per hour). Local authority spending (reduce the number of seats in Congress, Senate, City hall, etc... or less number of ministers and secretaries). Centralisation (all the public organisms or buildings relocated to the capital city instead of having a lot of public representatives along the country)

I know this would sound "selfish" but yes, it is necessary to freeze pension payments. We can be attached a big public debt if we decide to increase it among the consumer price index.

As you see there are a lot ways to reduce national debt. Raising taxes to stakeholders or businessmen is not the solution. They even would transfer their money to a tax heaven country anyway...

They know: they’re communist.
— Xtrix

No. — javi2541997

Yes. They’re communist.

They are not communist since the 1990s. — javi2541997

Yes, they are.

The Chinese economic reform or reform and opening-up is the program of economic reforms termed "Socialism (?) with Chinese characteristics" led by Deng Xiaoping, often credited as the "General Architect". In 2010, China overtook Japan as the world's second-largest economy by nominal GDP and in 2017 overtook the United States by becoming the world's largest economy by GDP. Only a capitalist country can reach such improvements in just two decades. — javi2541997

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Citing a Wikipedia entry doesn’t do much to change that.

First: China is a communist country, ruled by a communist government. I wouldn’t call it truly communist myself, but that’s what they claim. Whatever we call it, however, it’s not democratic or republican form of government.

Second: there’s been massive state intervention in the economy on all levels. Almost all business is state owned and run. But because you’re apparently a capitalist fundamentalist, because there’s been success in China it must somehow be due to “capitalism.”

A nice story to tell yourself. Anything bad = Socialism. Anything good = capitalism. Simple, easy, and complete bullshit. See Ha-Joon Chang to educate yourself, if of course you’re willing to break out of neoliberal delusions.

Lastly, the US is a mixed economy— like nearly all countries. Many economists describe it as a bailout economy, with heavy socialism for the wealthy. Hardly a role model.

It is not a good start and here is another solution I put on the table: spending cuts — javi2541997

Right, more neoliberal nonsense that’s been tried for 40 years and has been a complete disaster. Because “cuts” always means social programs.

But yeah, sure, let’s cut the military budget by 90%. That’ll more than pay for what we need. I won’t hold my breath for that suggestion.

For example: Highways and transport (instead of 5 buses, we only let 3 buses per hour). — javi2541997

Terrible idea. We need the opposite: more and better public transportation. Good for the environment, and what people want.

it is necessary to freeze pension payments. — javi2541997

There it is. In predictable fashion.

What a shocker there was no mention of military expenditure — the most bloated of all discretionary spending. I wonder why?

As you see there are a lot ways to reduce national debt. Raising taxes to stakeholders or businessmen is not the solution. — javi2541997

Yeah, so in your world what’s needed is for everyone else to tighten their belts, lose their pensions, and live even shittier and more precarious lives.

But let’s not dare tax billionaires.

By the way, you’re misusing “stakeholder.” Either you mean to say “shareholder,” or you’re not making sense. Stakeholders include employees and the community.

First: China is a communist country, ruled by a communist government. I wouldn’t call it truly communist myself, but that’s what they claim. Whatever we call it, however, it’s not democratic or republican form of government. — Xtrix

I think you are mixing politics and law with economics. Yes, China is a communist/Marxist country which controls all the population with induration and persecution.
In the other hand, from a economical point of view, they act as a pseudo capitalist country. It doesn't matter how the state can take part in the market because as I said previously, they are the first developers and producers of the world. It doesn't make sense to be a "Marxist economy" while your GDP increases each year thanks to the principles of world trade and international market.
Cuba (for example) is another Marxist country. They are poor as hell and their economy has no future. Exactly for doing old communist acts as expropriation and removing the private property. This is a real communist country, not like China.

But yeah, sure, let’s cut the military budget by 90%. That’ll more than pay for what we need. I won’t hold my breath for that suggestion. — Xtrix

I knew you would be agree with me towards spending cuts.

What a shocker there was no mention of military expenditure — the most bloated of all discretionary spending. I wonder why? — Xtrix

Because in Spain we are not used to spend in military forces. That's why I forgot to put it in my examples. But yes, I am agree it is another expenditure which needs spending cuts.

Yeah, so in your world what’s needed is for everyone else to tighten their belts, lose their pensions, and live even shittier and more precarious lives. — Xtrix

According to your own criteria, how can we live "good?" Before answering, think deeply if the state can assume the way of life you are referring in your "world"

See Ha-Joon Chang to educate yourself, if of course you’re willing to break out of neoliberal delusions — Xtrix

I am not neoliberal. I am just sceptical on the way a state is wasting resources and increasing the taxes on the middle-class workers.