A universe in continuous creation and flux can be imagined as a continuously rotating kaleidoscope. This would be the one and only fact, as far as I can ascertain, using Terrapin Station's definition and ontological perspective. The Stuff or the Universe is The Fact. — Rich
My point was that, by the cognitive relativist's own lights, his interlocutor can not only disregard the relativist's claim that "all truth is subjective/relative," but also the relativist's response that the truth that "all truth is relative" is true only for him (and other relativists, presumably) — Arkady
It makes perfect sense. If we agree that "it is raining" refers to a state of affairs where water falls from the clouds, and if water isn't falling from the clouds, then "it is raining" is false, even if we believe that water is falling from the clouds. — Michael
Let's try it this way. How would it work, exactly--basically in terms of the mechanics of it--that "it is raining" is true or false independently of what anyone thinks about it? — Terrapin Station
The state of affairs we agree it refers to obtains independently of our opinion. — Michael
That's the claim. I'm asking you how that works, mechanically/physically. — Terrapin Station
How words come to refer to states of affairs isn't the issue. — Michael
If words can't refer to something mind-independently, then we can't have reference obtaining or not mind-independently, and reference (and meaning, etc.) is necessary to assign "T" or "F" — Terrapin Station
Therefore, we might agree to refer to state of affairs X using the symbol "X", and we might believe that this state of affairs obtains, but it's actually the case that this state of affairs doesn't obtain. — Michael
The relativist position, at least the one I' partial to, is not that truth or facts are dependent on our opinion. It's based on a consensus of observers. — T Clark
What there's disagreement about is whether "X" is true or false independent of us/our judgment. Whether X is true or false is a matter of a judgment about a proposition. That's what it "means" for something to be true or false. That's independent of whether the state of affairs in question obtains or not. And there's no way for "X" to be true or false ("X" would have to be a proposition, by the way, only propositions are true or false) independent of us, because there's no independent meaning, reference, etc. Again, this is independent of X as a state of affairs. — Terrapin Station
What do you call a proposition that refers to a state of affairs that actually obtains? — Michael
Before I answer this again... — Terrapin Station
Okay, that's fine. I haven't answered that. — Terrapin Station
Do you understand that I believe that propositions can only exist via an individual thinking the proposition?
Okay, and you understand that on my view, reference (and meaning) only obtains when an individual thinks about them in a specific way? — Terrapin Station
Your remarks about predictions for the future, i didn't understand. There can't be facts about future anthropogenic global warming. I think most scientists think it's likely to be true, and that on the precautionary principle the best bet is to assume they're right. — mcdoodle
Okay. What it is, on my view, for a proposition to refer to a state of affairs (that obtains) is for an individual to think about propositions/meaning/reference in a particular way with respect to what they believe about the state of affairs. "What they believe" because since we're talking about a proposition and reference, it only makes sense to talk about it from that individual's perspective, because what propositions and reference/meaning and all that happen to be is that individual thinking about things a particular way. — Terrapin Station
But things might be other than they think it to be. They might believe that a particular state of affairs obtains even if it doesn't. — Michael
And if the proposition they choose to use to refer to that state of affairs is "it is raining", then the proposition "it is raining" is a true proposition (according to your definition of "true") that refers to a state of affairs that doesn't obtain.
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.