What about those who can't afford the fee? — Isaac

So pessimistic. I guess everyone can afford those basic fees...

What about those who can't afford the price? — Isaac

There always will be people who can afford it. You arguments are pessimistic and catastrophic. I am talking about purchasing a normal home not a yacht or helicopter...

And in the US...

I guess everyone can afford those basic fees... — javi2541997

There always will be people who can afford it. — javi2541997

I see we've descended into lunacy. Well, it was a pleasant chat...

Imagine using this way on macro business as Zara or Microsoft with thousands and thousands of employees. — javi2541997

Microsoft has consulted with Mondragon, in fact.

What does the number of employees have to do with it? I think Wall Mart workers do just fine without the input of the Walton family.

The markets and property don't exist in Cuba. — javi2541997

Both markets and private property exist in Cuba. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

I still waiting for an example of a successful socialist economy. — javi2541997

I’m still waiting for an example of a successful capitalist economy.

That you continue to miss the point isn’t my problem. I’ve been fairly explicit.

If you consider "meaningless" the huge development of Japan and South Korea is your problem not mine. — javi2541997

I haven’t once denied the development of either. Nor of China.

country as the USA. If you don't like capitalism, you can try another life in Cuba, Bolivia, Angola, etc... — javi2541997

The US isn’t capitalist.



Oh you mean like this:



Yeah, Cuba is pretty bad.

Oh wait, that’s the US.

I’m still waiting for an example of a successful capitalist economy.

That you continue to miss the point isn’t my problem. I’ve been fairly explicit. — Xtrix

Again? I already pointed out Japan and South Korea as a good examples of developed nations but you consider them as "meaningless". I think the one who is missing the point is you because you think that a country like Cuba has markets and private property. How do you know that? Because the official website of the dictatorship say so? Come on... they don't even have medical supplies.

I haven’t once denied the development of either. Nor of China. — Xtrix

What is "meaningless" according to you then?

Yeah, Cuba is pretty bad.

Oh wait, that’s the US. — Xtrix

Yes, in USA poverty exists too. But it is not even compared to Cuba... more facts (which you would treat them as "meaningless")

40-51% of the Cuban people live in poverty.. Literally the half of the population.

In 2020 the poverty rate of USA was 11.4%.

Roughly more than a 10 % of Americans.

Yes both countries are so similar... come on man.

I see we've descended into lunacy. Well, it was a pleasant chat... — Isaac

Thank you for debating with me. Appreciated it.

And in the US... — Isaac

The US too ;) (waiting for images of Cuba like the following ones)

already pointed out Japan and South Korea as a good examples of developed nations but you consider them as "meaningless". — javi2541997

Japan and South Korea are not meaningless.
They are not capitalist.

I think the one who is missing the point is you because you think that a country like Cuba has markets and private property. — javi2541997

Because Cuba does have markets and private property.

Come on... they don't even have medical supplies. — javi2541997

They have medical supplies as well.

So are you just going to talk nonsense now? If so, I’m not interested.

What is "meaningless" according to you then? — javi2541997

Try reading what I wrote again.

But if that’s too hard, I’ll repeat it yet again: the terms “capitalism” and “socialism” are so amorphous as to be meaningless.

Yes both countries are so similar... come on man. — javi2541997

I didn’t say they were similar, I was just highlighting how stupid it is to point to pictures of poverty as if it means anything. The reason for Cuba’s poverty isn’t socialism or communism.

The statistics you give are estimates, but there’s a lot of poverty in Cuba, no doubt. The United States has helped create that poverty, in fact. For decades. You can read about this, of course.

So now you want to compare pictures? Are you 15?

Simple google search of Cuba:





Looks good to me. I guess that proves something…

What next? Should we measure penis sizes?

:roll:

Try growing up and educating yourself before embarrassing yourself online repeatedly. Deal?

Japan and South Korea are not meaningless.
They are not capitalist. — Xtrix

According to your own economical criteria what the hell are they? Because they are so far for being communist. If you want to see a good indicator just check the differences between North and South Korea. It will terrify you...

The reason for Cuba’s poverty isn’t socialism or communism. — Xtrix

What is the main issue of Cuban poverty then? They are been living in a establishment which they cannot get rid of. It is damn dictatorship. I think it would be shameless not to point Bolivarian communism for being responsible of the main problems and calamities of Cuban people.

Because Cuba does have markets and private property. — Xtrix

No, they haven't. Go on and search some information about Cuban markets or private property. Oh you will not find it because it is an opaque dictatorship. It is impossible to find data.

Simple google search of Cuba: — Xtrix

Those are fake and have a lot of Photoshop.

Try growing up and educating yourself before embarrassing yourself online repeatedly. Deal? — Xtrix

Only if you leave of your comfort democratic capitalist zone and go to Cuba to prove how good they are living there :yum:

Japan and South Korea are not meaningless.
They are not capitalist.

Somebody needs to tell Honda they're state owned. :lol:

Somebody needs to tell Honda they're state owned — frank

:rofl: ! HAHA.

Nintendo, Toyota, Kawasaki, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Suzuki, Sony, Fujitsu, etc… all of them are controlled by the Japanese diet and the sacred figure of the Emperor :joke:

sacred figure of the Emperor :joke: — javi2541997

He's a genius!

According to your own economical criteria what the hell are they? Because they are so far for being communist. — javi2541997

I never said they were communist.

Japan too developed as a state-directed economy, with a huge shot in the arm from the Korean and Vietnam wars.

There’s plenty of literature on the true history of development: Ha-Joon Chang, Alice Amsden, Robert Wade, many others. The fact that from England, to the US, to Europe and Japan and the recent Asian “tigers,” large-scale state intervention and radical interference with markets has been a leading factor in economic development. In the US it’s so extreme that it’s laughable.

So they’re mixed economies— like the rest of the world.

What is the main issue of Cuban poverty then? — javi2541997

The United States.

Because Cuba does have markets and private property.
— Xtrix

No, they haven't. — javi2541997

Cuba has both markets and private property. That’s a fact. You can do a simple Google search to educate yourself.

Or continue embarrassing yourself. Your choice.

Only if you leave of your comfort democratic capitalist zone and go to Cuba to prove how good they are living there :yum: — javi2541997

I’ve been to Cuba. I liked it a lot, actually. I like Jamaica as well. I noticed a lot more poverty in Jamaica, but both were nice.

So let me know when you’ve done the bare minimum of homework on issues you have no clue about.

Or feel free to continue spouting nonsense. Your call.

Two mental giants. One thinks Cuba has no markets or private property, the other thinks the existence of a corporation proves the economy is “capitalist.” :lol:

The Japanese government is very much a servant of private owned industry. This gives Japanese companies a bit of an advantage over American ones where there's the legacy of conflict between government and manufacturing.

So let me know when you’ve done the bare minimum of homework on issues you have no clue about. — Xtrix

omg. Please stop

Two mental giants — Xtrix

There's no need to get personal. :lol:

Possibly helpful:

A nice non sequitur. Feel free to read what was said and try again:

Japan too developed as a state-directed economy, with a huge shot in the arm from the Korean and Vietnam wars.

There’s plenty of literature on the true history of development: Ha-Joon Chang, Alice Amsden, Robert Wade, many others. The fact that from England, to the US, to Europe and Japan and the recent Asian “tigers,” large-scale state intervention and radical interference with markets has been a leading factor in economic development. In the US it’s so extreme that it’s laughable.

So they’re mixed economies— like the rest of the world. — Xtrix

So they’re mixed economies — Xtrix

Sure. Japan and S. Korea are capitalist countries. That statement does not entail that the government has no role in the economy. It just means industry is privately owned and profit driven as opposed to a centrally planned.

We're only talking about this because you want to divert from your misinformation about China. China's prosperity is a direct result of the adoption of capitalism. Again, this is not controversial.

The United States. — Xtrix

Average argument of a socialist. The United States of America is guilty of all the disasters of this world. Keep with your brainwashed claims!

So they’re mixed economies— like the rest of the world. — Xtrix

Yes, ok. We can be agree here. They are mixed but closer to capitalism than other economical doctrine.

You can do a simple Google search to educate yourself. — Xtrix

Hey, one advice: do not believe in everything you find out in internet or Google. 90 % of data are fake news or Marxist liars who want to spread their fundamentalism.

I’ve been to Cuba. I liked it a lot, actually. I like Jamaica as well. I noticed a lot more poverty in Jamaica, but both were nice. — Xtrix

Conclusion: you enjoy poverty and you see formidable the struggle of a country which suffers from dictatorship. Cool.
At least Jamaica is a democracy and they can vote whatever they want. Or you will now that Cuba is more democratic than Jamaica? Because you seem obsessed with this country.

Two mental giants. — Xtrix

At least we recognize Japan and South Korea as capitalist countries and we condemn communism and the Cuban dictatorship. I think we are in the right path not like you.

:up:

China's prosperity is a direct result of the adoption of capitalism. Again, this is not controversial. — frank

One of the main important facts of this debate indeed. But according to Xtrix China becoming the most powerful country in the world thanks to the aperture to market and capitalism is just meaningless.

Average argument of a socialist. — javi2541997

your brainwashed claims! — javi2541997

fake news or Marxist liars who want to spread their fundamentalism. — javi2541997

you enjoy poverty and you see formidable the struggle of a country which suffers from dictatorship. — javi2541997

Cuba? Because you seem obsessed with this country. — javi2541997

:ok:

“Or feel free to continue spouting nonsense. Your call.”

So you went with this option. Oh well!

One of the main important facts of this debate indeed. But according to Xtrix China becoming the most powerful country in the world thanks to the aperture to market and capitalism is just meaningless. — javi2541997

It's very meaningful. Capitalism is a two edged sword. Capitalist economies tend to run hot. When the population adapts to a hot economy, there's pressure on the political system to keep it hot. Sooner or later it will melt down.

Bottom line: capitalism is dangerous, but it does create prosperity. That's the reason it's so enduring.

So they’re mixed economies
— Xtrix

Sure. Japan and S. Korea are capitalist countries. — frank

Sure. Japan and South Korea are socialist countries.

It just means industry is privately owned and profit driven as opposed to a centrally planned. — frank

Massive state intervention on every level is…capitalism. Got it.

China's prosperity is a direct result of the adoption of capitalism. — frank

:lol:

China isn’t capitalist either.

But you’re welcome to your fantasies.

Massive state intervention on every level is…capitalism. Got it. — Xtrix

How can you prove with facts that Japan has massive state intervention? You don’t stop to replicate this argument but you are not proving it.

But you’re welcome to your fantasies. — Xtrix

Educate yourself please: What Is the Laffer Curve?

For the record, at best one might say China is state-capitalist, like the US. But “socialist market economy” is probably the most accurate in the end. State intervention is rather extensive, I’d day.

Anyway- This thread is a good example of how important (and clearly unexamined) one’s self-serving definitions are. And how quickly capitalist apologists devolve into laughable incoherence.

Successful economy? That’s capitalism.
Failed economy? Socialism.

Easy. Simple.

This is the level of thinking among supposed adults on a philosophy forum. ::shrug::

Successful economy? That’s capitalism.
Failed economy? Socialism. — Xtrix

You could engage others in discussion to find out what they really think. And grow a sense of humor...

Sure. And you could keep your Twitter-level posts out of conversations in which you’re not involved and have no interest in keeping up with. So I guess we can all improve ourselves! :wink: