I agree with that part. — Terrapin Station
Is that per my views that you just said that you understood above, propositions, reference and meaning don't even exist aside from an individual thinking about something in a particular way. So the proposition and how it relates or doesn't relate to the state of affairs is all about that individual's thoughts at the time in question.
So what do you call a proposition that subjectively refers to a state of affairs that obtains? — Michael
When a proposition "matches" a state of affairs in a person's opinion, they say that it's a true proposition. — Terrapin Station
But things might be other than they think it to be. They might believe that a particular state of affairs obtains even if it doesn't. — Michael
I agree with that part. — Terrapin Station
We call it "false." The person who judges it to be true isn't going to say that it is false in that situation, but someone else would say that it is false. (And the person in question would say that it would be false if it weren't raining, but it is (per their belief).) — Terrapin Station
That's different than my view. On my view, consensuses, norms, etc. can take a hike. — Terrapin Station
If you're asking "what does the person in question call the proposition 'it is raining' in a situation where it isn't raining but they believe it to be raning," then they call it "true."
If you're asking "what does the person in question call a proposition that doesn't match a state of affairs, even though there's a mistaken belief that it does," they'd call it "false," at least at time Tx when it's realized by whomever that it doesn't match the state of affairs. — Terrapin Station
I'm asking if we have a term that refers to a proposition that refers to a state of affairs that doesn't actually obtain. We already have the term "false" that refers to a proposition that refers to a state of affairs that is judged not to obtain. Do we have a different term for the former? Or does the term "false" have two different (albeit related) meanings? — Michael
There is no difference. Comparing propositions to states of affairs is always a judgment. There's no "objective view." — Terrapin Station
I'm not comparing propositions to states of affairs — Michael
Then why are you using the words "reference," "description," "proposition" etc.? — Terrapin Station
Because we have propositions that refers to states of affairs that obtain and propositions that refer to states of affairs that don't obtain. — Michael
We can have propositions that refer to states of affairs that don't obtain, even if everybody believes that they do obtain. — Michael
We can have propositions that refer to states of affairs that don't obtain, even if everybody believes that they do obtain. — Michael
No you can't, because reference doesn't exist outside of particular individuals thinking about it however they do. — Terrapin Station
Actually, I retract that last comment. I would say that you could have that, but it wouldn't be that it's false outside of everyone thinking it's true. — Terrapin Station
So I want to know if we have a special term to refer to propositions (whether true or false) that refer to states of affairs that don't obtain (and do obtain). — Michael
No. The word for that is "false."
There's not a special word for propositions that people would judge to be false in a different scenario. — Terrapin Station
So we have the word "false" that refers both to a proposition that refers to a state of affairs that is judged to not obtain and to a proposition that refers to a state of affairs that actually doesn't obtain? — Michael
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