It turns out there is no debate.
— frank

Yes. If you decide to ignore all counterarguments, that tends to be the outcome. — Isaac

The summary.

Or instead of "surrender", we can call it a "stop" in violence. — Manuel

Yeah no, you can't, unless you are living under a rock or you are Russia's useful idiot. This is what surrender looks like:





Those who dismiss Russia's talk about the "denazification of Ukraine" as nothing but propaganda rhetoric are not paying attention. They are very, very serious about it, in their own perverse way. As serious as the actual historical Nazis were about their "final solution."

This is a cartoonization of the real world. Reminds me quite a bit of the propaganda used in WWI. Very dangerous thinking, in my opinion. — Manuel

Or, you know, the propaganda used in WWII. Which reasonable people like yourself would not believe.

I do so like those old-fashioned cartoons with their scrupulous banners, callouts and footnotes!

* Note - X indicates where Japan landed.

Yeah no, you can't, unless you are living under a rock or you are Russia's useful idiot. This is what surrender looks like: — SophistiCat

One picture that cuts through a lot of the BS. :up:

It's nauseating.

I have no doubt Russia is committing war crimes, as those pictures indicate. I mean, it is evident that it is, as is covered 24/7 in most news media. That is not new information, nor is it useful in seeking a way to STOP the conflict.

If you really believe that by posting pictures of that kind and saying "this is what surrender means" is any kind of coherent argument, then I'm afraid the useful idiot is elsewhere. Because a nuclear war will make that picture look pleasant in comparison.

Either a compromise is made, or we perish. Or you may take your gamble with an inside coup, see if that works.

Yes, Putin is a war criminal, has committed AWFUL crimes in a war - to which I add, who has not? No one here is mentioning the mass starvation in Afghanistan, we don't care about that - but if "defeating" him means throw ourselves to the flames, then I can think of no more irrational attitude imaginable.

Back in 2002, an Iraqi vice president suggested a duel between Bush and Hussein. :)

A president against a president and vice president against a vice president, and a duel takes place, if they are serious. And in this way we are saving the American and Iraqi people. — Taha Yassin Ramadan

_{↑ NPR; CNN; BBC}

^{(Musk trolled Putin. :grin:)}

Getting Rid of Nukes: The Trilateral Statement at 20 Years (, Brookings · Jan 13, 2014)

Putin Challenges the West (Again) (Carnegie · Jan 27, 2022)

All of the so-called Western bloc, which the U.S. formed in its image and likeness, all of it in its entirety, is what’s known as the empire of lies. — Putin Wants Revenge Not Just on Ukraine But on the U.S. and Its Allies (Time · Feb 24, 2022)

Today we hear that they want to defeat us on the battlefield. What can you say? Let them try. — West wants to defeat Russia on battlefield? ‘Let them try’: Putin (Al Jazeera · Jul 7, 2022)

_{↑ RFE/RL}

There are more statements, speeches, whatever, to that end. Thus spoke (and did) Putin. The Ukrainians look elsewhere, their choice to make. Compromise could be no nuclear weapons in Ukraine (above), or no Ukraine NATO membership, say. EU affiliation/membership is a different matter.
_{(If someone steals my bike, then giving half of it back isn't compromise, but, hey, I won't be riding in their garden. :death:)}

It could also be one reason for falling back when plan A didn’t work. Unlike the fate of all the border cities and villages where bringing in the artillery was the way to liberate their Russian citizens from Nazi oppression. — apokrisis

Your observations upon the reluctance to level Kiev make sense. On the other hand, the distance of supply lines for that sort of thing is much greater than the beating Kharkiv received for example.

In the future, more will be known about the planning in this regard. Coming from Belarus had a lot of limitations in terms of transportation. I wonder who was scheduled to land at Antonov airport if it had been secured.

Yes, Putin is a war criminal, has committed AWFUL crimes in a war - to which I add, who has not? — Manuel

Crate of gold teeth left behind by fleeing Russian torturers…



https://worldnationnews.com/gold-teeth-the-terrifying-discovery-that-shows-the-horrors-of-the-russian-occupation-in-ukraine/

But then what about this, and that and the other….always what about…

I wonder who was scheduled to land at Antonov airport if it had been secured. — Paine

Debrief article says…

By some accounts, Russia had intended to land 18-20 Ilyushin IL-76 transport planes at the Hostomel airfield invasion’s opening hours. An aerial convoy this size could have potentially brought two entire battalion tactical groups (BTGs) worth of troops and equipment to the capital’s doorstep within the first hours of the invasion.

In a perfect scenario, Russia likely envisioned that five distinct east and west axes of advance, plus airborne forces at Hostomel, would already be on the outskirts of Kyiv by February 25.

Article is all about the riot police who also got sent as part of the Kyiv “feint”. What a cock up (unless you believe the interpretation that Moscow planned for the crowd control that would be needed as regime change was under way).

https://thedebrief.org/know-no-mercy-the-russian-cops-who-tried-to-storm-kyiv-by-themselves/

By some accounts, Russia had intended to land 18-20 Ilyushin IL-76 transport planes at the Hostomel airfield invasion’s opening hours. An aerial convoy this size could have potentially brought two entire battalion tactical groups (BTGs) worth of troops and equipment to the capital’s doorstep within the first hours of the invasion.

Airlifting entire battalions by cargo plane under the Ukrainian AA umbrella?

The fact that you wouldn't dispose of such a notion outright is quite telling.

Now the question is, since you seem to lack military expertise, why do you choose to base your opinions on this specific article and this specific author? (or any of the other articles you have shared)

Newspaper articles are all fine and good, but what it seems we're ending up with is the blind leading the blind.

Yes, Putin is a war criminal, has committed AWFUL crimes in a war - to which I add, who has not? — Manuel

You have committed war crimes, Manuel? ??

RYBAR reports movement in this area:

Incidentally, google maps says "Light traffic in this area". :smile:

And...?

How does the scale of the atrocity have any bearing whatsoever on the most effective method for stopping it?

The Yugoslav wars were the scene of some of the worst war crimes since WWII. None of which prevented several peace talks, UN interventions, negotiations, agreements over territory and a final division of the disputed territories. None of which, incidentally, even prevented the perpetrators of those war crimes being brought to justice.

There's nothing whatsoever about peace talks, concessions and territorial agreements which either perpetuates war crimes, nor prevents justice being done to those who committed them.

So if you want to have a serious conversation instead of just virtue signalling, then link your atrocities to a solution of some kind. Join the dots. How does the fact that the Russian army are behaving so atrociously mean that prolonged war is better than negotiated peace (even with concessions). What's the link?

Now the question is, since you seem to lack military expertise, — Tzeentch

It’s nice to know we have someone here with such obvious military expertise as yourself to guide us. Now back to what sources have said and not what some random internet dude wants to claim as an excuse for Russian military incompetence.

In the time leading up to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) obtained detailed information about Russian attack plans. CIA director William J. Burns travelled to Ukraine in January 2022, and informed the Ukrainian leadership that Russia intended to capture Antonov Airport for an airbridge, which would allow Russian forces to quickly move into Kyiv to "decapitate the government".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antonov_Airport

Before dawn on Thursday, February 24, military helicopters flew in low over Ukraine’s northern frozen fields towards Hostomel Airport, a testing facility for the Antonov cargo airline on Kyiv’s outskirts.

The aircraft deposited Russian paratroopers, wearing orange and black armbands, who took control of the airport. The Russians were so confident, that they allowed a CNN television crew to film them guarding the airport’s perimeter.

Eighteen giant Ilyushin Il-76 cargo planes were flying from Russia towards the airport, carrying more soldiers or weapons and ammunition, according to Christo Grozev, a European journalist who runs Bellingcat, an online media outlet.

The Ukrainians counterattacked, and, they claimed, shot down several helicopters. By Friday, the second day of the war, the airport was under Russian control, although too badly damaged to receive soldiers by plane. The location of the Ilyushins and their cargo was unclear. The fight might have forced them back to Russia.

“We surmise the airlifted force was designed to help spearhead the Russian attack on Kyiv,” an American think tank, the Atlantic Council, said this week. “The Ukrainian defence of the airfield on February 24 slowed the advance on Kyiv, possibly preventing a rapid capture of the capital.”

The underlying problem appears to be the Russian military bureaucracy and civilian leadership’s willingness to devise and accept an unrealistic and risky invasion plan.

https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/why-russia-s-military-strategy-is-failing-20220304-p5a1ov

So your 'sources' are the CIA, and the arms-industry-funded Atlantic Council? Phew, thank goodness we've finally found some unbiased sources without any ulterior motives to worry about.

It’s nice to know we have someone here with such obvious military expertise as yourself to guide us. — apokrisis

I'm presently serving and have a degree in military strategy.

And...? — Isaac

No, you are quite right. This is indeed how one wages a war to liberate and denazify a country. What was I thinking!

Phew, thank goodness we've finally found some unbiased sources without any ulterior motives to worry about. — Isaac

Do I have to join every dot for you apologists? If Ukraine AA would have made an airbridge impossible, then someone might have mentioned it. Military expertise would not have been lacking in the reported discussions.

I'm presently serving and have a degree in military strategy — Tzeentch

I look forward to evidence that you can source your views in response to the published reports then. It should be really easy.

If Ukraine AA would have made an airbridge impossible, then someone might have mentioned it. — apokrisis

Not "would have made" - Ukrainian AA makes it impossible. You're suggesting to fly in cargo planes carrying entire battalions a few kilometers from the frontline, where even helicopters and combat aircraft cannot operate safely.

I already have.

No, you are quite right. This is indeed how one wages a war to liberate and denazify a country. What was I thinking! — apokrisis

Intersting outburst. Anything in response to what I actually wrote...?

You’ve said the same thing a hundred times. :smile:

I think we're seeing an interesting common theme arise; anything the Russians do is speculated, often without any objective basis, to have been a lot more ambitious than their actual results, and thus can be framed as a failure.

The sources that claim to know the Russian intentions are usually western journalists or military analysts - the same types of analysts who in the winter of 2021 claimed Kiev would fall in a matter of hours.

As I've hinted at before, it seems many western analysts are now having to correct their image of the Russian war machine that they themselves inflated beyond proportion. However, they are not yet at the stage where they're able to stop projecting that flawed image onto the Kremlin's military planning.

They seem convinced that the Kremlin shared their inflated view of the Russian military - something for which not a speck of evidence has been presented.

Not "would have made" - Ukrainian AA makes it impossible. — Tzeentch

And yet 30 helicopters made the initial assault. How was that possible? Were they supersonic or stealth or something?

The Russians also fired off 160 missiles to try and suppress the air defences.

But Ukrainian troop had recaptured enough of the airport to put the runway out action within 12 hours.

So you haven’t really made a slam dunk case as yet. :smile:

I think we're seeing an interesting common theme arise; anything the Russians do is speculated, often without any objective basis, to have been a lot more ambitious than their actual results, and thus can be framed as a failure. — Tzeentch

You make it sound like this hasn’t been the universal response of all informed military experts watching events unfold.

Now the whole of the West may be pretending to be surprised by Russian ineptitude. Is this what you are wanting us to believe?

What would be the motive for this massive disinformation campaign that is apparently backed by endless factual evidence of incompetence and miscalculation by a regime eroded from the inside by its gangster economics?

You’ve said the same thing a hundred times. — apokrisis

Oh, well maybe an answer this time then.

What is the link between the scale of the atrocities and the efficacy of continued war as a strategy to limit them? It's a simple enough question.

What is the link between the scale of the atrocities and the efficacy of continued war as a strategy to limit them? It's a simple enough question. — Isaac

A simple enough answer: a peace deal now entrenching Russia's position in Dombass and Crimea would ensure that they can continue their vast crimes unabated. The only way to stop them, is to take hold of them Russian criminals and bring them to justice, and kick the rest out of the country.

How would your argument apply to Hitler? Was appeasement a success?

a peace deal now entrenching Russia's position in Dombass and Crimea would ensure that they can continue their crimes unabated. — Olivier5

On what evidence? What evidence do you have that war crimes continue in occupied territories after the peace deals have been signed to a greater extent than they do during the war. Do we see similar atrocities being carried out in current Russia on ethnic Ukrainians? Are there still such crimes being committed on a regular basis on the former Yugoslavia more so than during the war?

And prior to the invasion are you saying that no such crimes were committed by Ukrainian forces in Donbas during the insurgencies - because the UN war crime tribunal would beg to differ with you on that front.

You've still not joined the dots. What links the scale of atrocities during the war with the notion that only further war can prevent them?

How would your argument apply to Hitler? — apokrisis

What argument? The argument that peace negotiations and territorial concessions are often a good strategy to avoid loss of life? Then yes, that would definitely have been true of 1930's Europe too.

And yet 30 helicopters made the initial assault. How was that possible? Were they supersonic or stealth or something? — apokrisis

Helicopters fly low, and the type of air defense that can tackle low-flying helicopters have a significantly lower range.

The Russians also fired off 160 missiles to try and suppress the air defences. — apokrisis

Does that sound like the kind of environment you'd be airlifting in battalions worth of troops with cargo planes?

You make it sound like this hasn’t been the universal response of all informed military experts watching events unfold. — apokrisis

Your sources have been largely non-expert journalists. Among military experts there isn't any kind of consensus at all. Mearsheimer makes the exact opposite case that you're making.

Now the whole of the West may be pretending to be surprised by Russian ineptitude. — apokrisis

My point is that they are not pretending. They completely miscalculated the balance of power between Russia and Ukraine (Ukrainian forces would crumble in days, Kiev would fall in hours, etc.). Now they're having to swallow their own words, but they're not yet capable of conceiving that the Kremlin may not have made that same miscalculation.

This is why it is so hard for some to accept that Russia probably went into this war with limited war goals.

What would be the motive for this massive disinformation campaign that is apparently backed by endless factual evidence of incompetence and miscalculation by a regime eroded from the inside by its gangster economics? — apokrisis

You're asking what the point is of framing? Propaganda, of course. Western backing of Ukraine is hanging by a thread. The only parties that truly want it to continue are the Washington and Brussels elite. Both in terms of political willingness and domestic support it depends entirely on the idea that Ukraine can win this war.