It seems, at the very least, that poetic meaning is open — Moliere
It brings something not in the poem, explicitly, to make sense of what is explicitly there. — Moliere
So, while I don't think there are going to be a set of rules for this kind of meaning -- I wonder, what's up with poetic meaning? — Moliere
In one sense an interpretation of a poem will set out what it means, why it's significant, the feelings that might arise, — Moliere
I am against all of those who are rigid towards interpreting a poem. There isn’t anyone clever than other in terms of experiencing poetry. — javi2541997
I want share another poem with you:
[He] said:
“the sea used to come here”
And and [he] put more wood on the fire. Ozaki Hōsai.
This haiku poem gives me nostalgia because the author is missing something that is no longer with him: the sea. — javi2541997
It brings it, but where was it, what did we put it in, and how was it transported? How can something be "in" the poem when the poem is sounds? How do we "make" sense? Do we build it?
You seem to be speaking in metaphor, comparing abstract thoughts to physical objects and the movement of tangible things.
I see what you're saying, but not really visually as seeing would entail.
My point is that all is metaphor and poetry. — Hanover
Would it not also follow that different types of poems work differently? — Tom Storm
An aspect of poetry is the concentrated, careful word selection to intensify meaning. They also have to sound good when read aloud. I think it was jounro-poet Clive James who said if a poem doesn't captivate when heard, it will collapse and not be remembered. Or something like that.
I've come to see that art, including poetry, doesn't mean anything beyond the audience's experience in seeing, reading, or hearing it. Art is an artists way of expressing an experience which makes it possible for them to share it with others. — T Clark
I've come to see that art, including poetry, doesn't mean anything beyond the audience's experience in seeing, reading, or hearing it. Art is an artists way of expressing an experience which makes it possible for them to share it with others. — T Clark
What distinguishes an artistic expression from your expression quoted above? What would a non-artistic expression be? If there is no distinction, then all is art. — Hanover
I wonder, though, to take a line from Kant, just because we begin with truth-conditions in our thinking about meaning doesn't mean that meaning starts with truth-conditions. I think it could at least be made coherent that we begin with, as you say, metaphor and poetry and, from that, craft truth-conditions. — Moliere
In “Surfaces and Essences: Analogy as the Fuel and Fire of Thinking” Douglas Hofstadter claims that all human thought is analogical. I've read similar views in other places too. — T Clark
I agree with this, too. — Moliere
they necessitate dialogue, an other, a community, a group. The poem comes alive in the collective witnessing of the poem — Moliere
I pulled the following from Brian Bilston's Laboetry: — Moliere
It seems, at the very least, that poetic meaning is open -- there's no problem with having multiple interpretations, in fact that's what you'd expect. — Moliere
Although, with the passing of time, the Murder She Wrote reference becomes more about nostalgia or a remembrance of simpler times. — Tom Storm
To continue in the Kantian line of thinking, truth would be noumenal, so it would be unknowable. — Hanover
Applying this to statements, the best we can say of statements is the best we can say of perceptions, and that is that they belong to us, are our interpretations, and are influenced by who we are. We see the cat, but whether it is as it appears to us is the unknowable. When we speak of the cat, we speak in terms of our other phenomena and compare, analogize, and use as metaphor what we interpret. It's all a matter of interpretation, which is consistent with an indirect realist view of the world.
The direct realist states the cat is just what the cat appears to be. I find that equivalent to the literalist who says the sentence says just what the words say it says.
The indirect realist states the cat is whatever it is, mediated by the person's perceptions and sensory faculties. I find that equivalent to the non-literalist who says the sentence is an interpretative description influenced by worldview and comparative analysis to other perceptions. — Hanover
Oh... I thought we were disagreeing. — T Clark
I agree with this. There are worthwhile things to say about poetry, but I don't think meaning is one of them except in the fairly trivial sense of knowing what the poet is referring to. Example - In "Wild Grapes" by Robert Frost, it's good to know that "Leif the Lucky's German" refers to Leif Erickson's German foster father.
I like to talk about what I experience when I read a poem. As I see it, that's different from it's meaning. From my point of view, most of the poem interpretations I've read are baloney. I do also like to talk about technical aspects of the poem - meter, rhyme, metaphor - and how they help me share the poet's experience. I don't think that's the same thing as meaning either. — T Clark
Thanks for the introduction. Most enjoyable :up: — Amity
The rhythm of the first two lines in each verse reminds me of something heard before.
Possibly a pop song or an advert...
Something along the lines of 'This is not just food. This is M&S food'.
No, it's a jingly kind of pop.
Ah, got it!
The Bangles... — Amity
Oh... I thought we were disagreeing.
— T Clark
Well, we're not!
So there! — Moliere
So you would claim that "poetic meaning" in reference to "meaning" is more or less an equivocation, that these are actually separate things. Do I have you right?
That is fine by me, because I'm also actually interested in the aesthetics of poetry unto itself -- and actually put this in aesthetics with the idea of exploring that more than the usual reductions, with the idea of it generating more shared thoughts to build from.
And, even more than that, while I have this odd suspicion, it is just an odd suspicion. And it's a lot easier to talk about how poems work and how it is they mean or what it is they mean. — Moliere
And, if accepted, it would make your distinction between art and reality, as you've acknowledged, ultimately artificial. — Hanover
I'm confused. You keep talking about poetic meaning, but I said poems, art in general, don't mean anything. How can we be agreeing — T Clark
I've come to see that art, including poetry, doesn't mean anything beyond the audience's experience in seeing, reading, or hearing it. Art is an artists way of expressing an experience which makes it possible for them to share it with others. — T Clark
God, give me grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.
So I was reading you as restricting poetic meaning to the experience, rather than making a distinction between meaning and experience. — Moliere
On either way, though, we can make a distinction between the poetic and the literal, right? — Moliere
The phonetic "Chair" stands for a chair I'm sitting on. In a way it is the most basic metaphor -- to treat a sound as a differentiated object of meaning. — Moliere
So what's the poems poetic meaning as opposed to its literal meaning? — Dawnstorm
No, mere substitution doesn't make a metaphor — Dawnstorm
I think I did find the basic experience you described -- the experience of being awoken from a gloomy day-dream. That clicked for me. And then upon reading what you shared I could see how the bird was playing a kind of joke -- and to set up a contrast between that joke and the sadness of gloomy daydreams. I liked you highlighting that for me because I could see it there on a second reading when I didn't on the first. — Moliere
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