Some of us need to turn off our empathy, like soldiers, who do all the dirty work, do!

Some of us need to turn off our empathy, like soldiers, who do all the dirty work, do! — Agent Smith

Right. It all has to do with emotions. And behind them are thoughts. And behind them is mind. That's why so many soldiers --"who do all the dirty work", as you say-- come back from wars mentally damaged.

Right. It all has to do with emotions. And behind them are thoughts. And behind them is mind. That's why so many soldiers --"who do all the dirty work", as you say-- come back from wars mentally damaged. — Alkis Piskas

Yes, by dirty work I mean precisely that! On point mon ami!

I hear veterans aren't treated all that well - no surprises there because how many of 'em is the government gonna pander to? There are quite literally thousands upon thousands of ex-armymen out there ; some are on the streets, others are alcoholics, most never recover from the trauma. Too bad, eh?

Really bad, yes.
The latest film I think I watched on the subject --a very good one-- was "Thank You for Your Service". You might have seen it yourself too. If not, check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_You_for_Your_Service_(2017_film).
It's about "posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depicting U.S. soldiers who try to adjust to civilian life." And this was a "mild" story. Earlier films I watched we much more "ugly".

I will back off Athena. I don't want it to seem like I am trying to manipulate your heartstrings to compel you to keep doing what you have always done. You have battled in support of those which our current society ignores and discards, you have done enough, regardless of what you decide to do next. — universeness

Oh please, I have found you validating and motivating. And this is not like the past. In the past, everything seemed manageable but now the problems have exploded. My community has done so much to resolve homelessness and the problem keeps getting bigger. However, you put me on a good path, of researching and believing I can do some good by testifying at the Oregon Legislature after the first of the year. I am really excited about what I might do.

I am reminded of a geology professor's explanation of exponential growth. That last doubling of the population makes manageable problems unmanageable and no one saw it coming because it seems to happen all at once. If we didn't have such a severe housing shortage we wouldn't have such a serious problem with homelessness. If the person I am trying to help could rent a bedroom for $400 there would be no problem. Many homeless people have a monthly income. It just isn't enough to pay the high rents. We don't have the land for more houses and the cost of building is extremely high. :lol: I don't know if a math lesson would help the legislature understand the problem. That is not the emotional story that motivates people to take action.

I also may have found a way to help the gentleman. Well, we have made a lot of progress, and doing this has been a learning experience. A huge barrier is communication! Every organization has its own terminology and acronyms and they just assume they are making sense when us outsiders don't have a clue what they are talking about. That is a problem that can be fixed without spending any money. Just stop using that insider talk when speaking with someone who is not an insider. And like a miracle, people are finally giving us written information that is useful.

I need to ponder if I can do that written information more effectively so every agency has all of it and a person asking for help can have that information from day one. For sure the 2 pages of rentals from 2 years ago, are not useful today and a person has to question if the bureaucrats have a good understanding of reality when they pass out useless information. :lol: You begin by saying the person is homeless and they ask for the person's address. You explain the person has brain damage and they want a phone number. They will gladly send information to a person's email and s/he can print it. Like they seem to have no clue of what it means to be homeless and brain damaged and without resources.

I can do some good by testifying at the Oregon Legislature after the first of the year. I am really excited about what I might do. — Athena

I have no doubt about that and believe the above quote to be quite accurate. You seem a tour de force.
I just wish others with power and determination would rally to you. Look at the women of Iran right now!
They have had enough of backwards misogynistic shit from religious antiques, and they are protesting and burning their hijabs. When you look at the protesting crowds, there are as many men out supporting the women as there are women. 6 people killed so far but this has not stopped the people. I so hope this grows into a serious challenge to the horrible regime in Iran.

I am reminded of a geology professor's explanation of exponential growth. That last doubling of the population makes manageable problems unmanageable and no one saw it coming because it seems to happen all at once. If we didn't have such a severe housing shortage we wouldn't have such a serious problem with homelessness. If the person I am trying to help could rent a bedroom for $400 there would be no problem. Many homeless people have a monthly income. It just isn't enough to pay the high rents. We don't have the land for more houses and the cost of building is extremely high. :lol: I don't know if a math lesson would help the legislature understand the problem. That is not the emotional story that motivates people to take action. — Athena

An irresistible movement for serious and permanent change can also grow exponentially as well if people have had enough of injustices such as homeless in a land of plenty such as the USA. People get tired of lining the pockets of greedy landlords whilst their tenants live under rules which the landlords don't live under. The few can only steal the cream for so long. If you give people few reasons to live, then their fear reduces more and more, especially their fear of retribution if they revolt. They have little to lose but the controlling few have a great deal to lose.

Just stop using that insider talk when speaking with someone who is not an insider. And like a miracle, people are finally giving us written information that is useful. — Athena

Couldn't agree more, once you get past all the trained monkeys, and the strange sounds and movements they make to distract you from the organ grinder, you reach the truth of the matter and can then clearly reveal how unfair and unfit for purpose the system is. Then you and your supporters can demand change, on threat of political deselection/destruction/removal of those currently in power.

You begin by saying the person is homeless and they ask for the person's address. You explain the person has brain damage and they want a phone number. They will gladly send information to a person's email and s/he can print it. Like they seem to have no clue of what it means to be homeless and brain damaged and without resources. — Athena

As I typed, the distracting monkeys are well trained. They are perfectly aware that their system is front loaded with as much BS info as possible and as many 'up the hill and down again and around and around we go' pathways, to compel most applicants to go away and stop bothering them for help.
They know EXACTLY how to help each person but many local authorities would much rather spend their budget on maintaining the surrounding and services they provide for the 'well off,' people, not the challenged, needy people they consider a drain on their resources. The only hope for such challenged people is people like you!

Funny guy. Didn't know about him. Watched a couple of videos ...

Funny guy. Didn't know about him. Watched a couple of videos ... — Alkis Piskas

:grin:

Today I am facing the reality of possibly being evicted. and I am sacred. I am not sure things have come to that, but neighbors have warned me management was investigating. A decision to evict me can be made by people who do not know me and have not spoken with me. Not that long ago we knew each other and we could discuss the rules and if exceptions can be made. This made a huge difference in our moral decisions because we were aware of how we affected each other's lives and we felt for each other. Today feelings have been taken out of the equation. The decisions are totally impersonal. That difference has everything to do with our liberty and morality. Total strangers making decisions that affect our lives as much as an eviction affects a person's life, with no communication and no feelings could be thought of as the biblical beast. I am not Christian, but that the beast is a pretty good analogy of the power over us and how our liberty and personal power are being crushed.

Under that beast, family can not help family because of government-controlled privacy laws. The gentleman I am trying to help has a sister and a cousin who want to help, but privacy law prevents them from speaking for their brother and learning from the bureaucrats if there is any way to help him. We have made laws that destroy the family and make everyone dependent on the government. This is what we defended our democracy against in WWII and then we adopted Germany's model of bureaucracy and education for technology. We are now the mechanical society we defended our democracy against.

So what if people are dying on the streets because they have trouble functioning in today's world.
How is this different from rounding up the Jews and citizens not daring to resist the dictates of the government? I want to stress this is about our relationship with our government, our humanity, and morality and liberty.

I am considering suicide might make my life meaningful if it gets attention to the problem we have created. When I think of all the people who lost their lives defending our democracy and what things have come too, and how their sacfrice means nothing if we do not turn around and reestablish individiual liberty and power.

suicide — Athena

It's that bad, eh?

A bit extreme and unprovable if it will have the effect you desire. Although the cause is noble suicide is not the way.

Agent Smith — Agent Smith

Deus — Deus

Deus — Deus

I found out things are not exactly as I thought they were. I don't know what to think now but some young people seem to be better than those they are replacing. There is a greater liberalness. When I was finally able to make phone contact with the important people they approved of me adding the gentleman I am helping to my housing. It appears the rules have changed along with people having a more liberal attitude. I would like to know how to research this. Like when did the rules change and what motivated the change? Was it our housing crisis and being overwhelmed with homeless people that lead to rules being changed?

Is the generation that is now taking the jobs more liberal than those before them and are my moral concerns unfounded fear of change? I would love to talk with the ancient Greek philosophers about my moral concerns. But that could be a little contentious. Plato's republic is the model of Utopias that failed, real and fictional ones. I am not the only one suspicious of government having too much power. In the 1830's Tocqueville wrote of Christian democracies becoming despots. There is Orwell and Huxley. And news talks about the popular distrust of government.

But the last couple of days have calmed me down. I am getting what I asked for and I am not sure I want it. :lol: I think I will be meek for a while and consider I may not know enough to be too sure of myself. And thanks for the replies. I wanted to know what the reaction would be because I was not sure of my thinking being good logic. My ego likes the idea of dying for a good cause but that does not make it a good thing to do.

I have no doubt about that and believe the above quote to be quite accurate. You seem a tour de force.
I just wish others with power and determination would rally to you. Look at the women of Iran right now!
They have had enough of backwards misogynistic shit from religious antiques, and they are protesting and burning their hijabs. When you look at the protesting crowds, there are as many men out supporting the women as there are women. 6 people killed so far but this has not stopped the people. I so hope this grows into a serious challenge to the horrible regime in Iran. — universeness

For sure I hope the women win the fight for their rights. We burned our bras and I am so thankful the danger to us was not as it is for the women of backward countries.

An irresistible movement for serious and permanent change can also grow exponentially as well if people have had enough of injustices such as homeless in a land of plenty such as the USA. People get tired of lining the pockets of greedy landlords whilst their tenants live under rules which the landlords don't live under. The few can only steal the cream for so long. If you give people few reasons to live, then their fear reduces more and more, especially their fear of retribution if they revolt. They have little to lose but the controlling few have a great deal to lose. — universeness

This subject is very frightening because I think the US government has overextended itself. We are reaching our debt limit when war and problems caused by global warming threaten us. At the same time, our economy appears to be spinning out of control. This could be a different subject. For bloody sure, the increase in the minimum wage has not helped anyone as inflation keeps them down. We used to laugh at Russia because we heard many people jam into a home but here we are with people living together in their struggle to survive. As I said above the rules have changed allowing unrelated people to share housing. We must do more for people who need help but I don't know how we can. Things are out of control.

Couldn't agree more, once you get past all the trained monkeys, and the strange sounds and movements they make to distract you from the organ grinder, you reach the truth of the matter and can then clearly reveal how unfair and unfit for purpose the system is. Then you and your supporters can demand change, on threat of political deselection/destruction/removal of those currently in power. — universeness

Okay, I tried to communicate to the council on aging that reliance on technology is locking people out of medical care and services. The man I am trying to help is locked out because he can not use a cell phone. I struggle to use a cell phone and with forms and conversations based on specialized jargon. I am having trouble getting blood work done because talking to a robot over the phone is too frustrating! I throw up my hands and think so what if I drop dead? At least then I don't have to deal with the barriers to getting services. I am old. I think this reliance on technology is just rude. It sure makes me feel powerless. The problem is not the technology. I am walking because of medical technology. I love technology but how it is being used can be a problem.

As I typed, the distracting monkeys are well trained. They are perfectly aware that their system is front loaded with as much BS info as possible and as many 'up the hill and down again and around and around we go' pathways, to compel most applicants to go away and stop bothering them for help.

They know EXACTLY how to help each person but many local authorities would much rather spend their budget on maintaining the surrounding and services they provide for the 'well off,' people, not the challenged, needy people they consider a drain on their resources. The only hope for such challenged people is people like you! — universeness

I would not say their intention is to lock people out, but that is the result. Well, my sister was a bureaucrat and she does not hold a high opinion of government workers who can not relate to those they serve and intentionally ignore phone calls while they socialize with each other. But I think many of them are overwhelmed with heavy workloads. When the bureaucrat I had to speak with finally called back she sounded like a very nice person. We have communication problems that is for sure!!!

It's as I used to say, messy. All models are wrong.

For sure I hope the women win the fight for their rights. We burned our bras and I am so thankful the danger to us was not as it is for the women of backward countries — Athena

Have you saw some of the mobile phone footage coming out of Iran, such as the two I posted recently in the shout box, in my 6th post on this page here
ALL POWER TO THESE YOUNG BRAVE PEOPLE! Almost 200 people have lost their lives so far to this vile theistic regime.

We must do more for people who need help but I don't know how we can. Things are out of control. — Athena

Similar to words I typed previously, one set of hands, held out, opened and pushed forwards can do little to protect individuals from a cold blowing wind but if many other hands joined you then things can get better. It's very old but it's still very true..... UNITED, WE STAND! DIVIDED, WE FALL!

I am having trouble getting blood work done because talking to a robot over the phone is too frustrating! I throw up my hands and think so what if I drop dead? At least then I don't have to deal with the barriers to getting services. — Athena

No shame in seeking help, others accept your help, you can get help too. I now act as a barrier between my mother and the outside world. I deal with all authorities, medical, financial etc on her behalf but I do so based on her instructions, her directions, her wishes. I deal with the robots for her and those humans in call centres that can hardly speak English (no fault of theirs of course, just the usual profiteers using the cheapest labour force on offer), as I am fully able to do that. Don't be too pround Athena, get the help you are entitled to, the same help you are trying to get for others. Family/friends/neighbours/help groups/charities surely someone can help you here. In Scotland we have some fantastic organisations like 'Age concern,' 'Citizens Advice Bureau,' 'Alzheimer's society,' 'Local council, home help support,' etc, etc. You must have the equivalent of some of these.

But I think many of them are overwhelmed with heavy workloads. — Athena

So are the poor sods they are supposed to be helping! Perhaps they are not overwhelmed with heavy workloads but overwhelmed by their unfair circumstances. I absolutely agree, that there are many good people working in the social care system but there are many f***wits as well! There is no question that they are over worked, under paid and way under-resourced and the real culprits are the politicians in power. The pressure must come from the people who must move 'en masse' to pressure those in power and demand significant improvement to the social care system, on threat of removal from power.

I am so sorry to hear that you are possibly facing eviction and I am danger of being evicted too. The circumstances of my own is that the landlord where I am has left the country. I didn't know that he was subletting from an agency, and he had not been paying the rent to them recently. The real owner wishes to have the house back and, originally we were all meant to move in August but are still there paying rent. I am looking for accommodation on a daily basis and it is so hard to find anything apart from shabby overpriced tiny rooms from rogue landlords, who don't even give proper tenancy contracts. At the beginning I was confident about finding somewhere but have been panicking more in the last couple of weeks.

It is rather ironic that both of us who were writing about your concern about a man at the beginning of the thread are fearing eviction and potential homelessness. My general feeling is that life has become much harder in the last few years and, increasingly, people care less about others. So many people are struggling, the gulf between the rich and the poor is increasing and, often, people are being treated as mere numbers.

Anyway, I am trying to keep my inner strength and I hope that you keep strong. I hope that you don't get evicted and I will continue looking for somewhere because I think that the owner and agency will give myself and the others here a certain amount of time to find somewhere.

↪Athena It's as I used to say, messy. All models are wrong. — Agent Smith

I would really like to know what you mean about all models being wrong. Time and again, I am realizing things are the same and not the same. For example, we all want to think we are caring people and for some, that means being socialist and for others, socialism is the great evil. But what are we talking about when we use labels? Many things appear to be different shades of the same thing but we are under the illusion that we have no agreement.

The Greeks didn't have all these labels and they argued about values and truths. Have we created a communication problem that might be resolved?

↪Athena
I am so sorry to hear that you are possibly facing eviction and I am danger of being evicted too. The circumstances of my own is that the landlord where I am has left the country. I didn't know that he was subletting from an agency, and he had not been paying the rent to them recently. The real owner wishes to have the house back and, originally we were all meant to move in August but are still there paying rent. I am looking for accommodation on a daily basis and it is so hard to find anything apart from shabby overpriced tiny rooms from rogue landlords, who don't even give proper tenancy contracts. At the beginning I was confident about finding somewhere but have been panicking more in the last couple of weeks.

It is rather ironic that both of us who were writing about your concern about a man at the beginning of the thread are fearing eviction and potential homelessness. My general feeling is that life has become much harder in the last few years and, increasingly, people care less about others. So many people are struggling, the gulf between the rich and the poor is increasing and, often, people are being treated as mere numbers.

Anyway, I am trying to keep my inner strength and I hope that you keep strong. I hope that you don't get evicted and I will continue looking for somewhere because I think that the owner and agency will give myself and the others here a certain amount of time to find somewhere. — Jack Cummins

So true and you have experience with people who have cognitive problems! If you and I find the system is going against us, how much worse it must be for people with cognitive problems? You know what to do but people like the person I am helping, do not. We think of those people as the problem, but when we experience the problem ourselves we realize something has gone very wrong. I thought it would be easy to get this man into a rented bedroom because he has an income, but to my horror, bedrooms are hundreds of dollars more than the last time I checked.

It isn't just that we have a housing crisis but dealing with bureaucrats has become much harder. It is like since the pandemic everything has gotten worse.

You keep me aware that this is not just in the US. Did our faith in technology lead us into these problems? Or is the problem overpopulation and real shortages of land and timber to build homes? I think many of us are in shock. Our quality of life seems seriously threatened. What you said about those in control of the rentals is frightening. On top of everything else is worry about being scammed and taken advantage of. We have something called Craigslist and people are claiming to have rentals and are taking people's money for fees when they have no rental but are just cheating people. I swear we did not have this problem before. The shortage of housing has led to people being victimized because they hurry up and pay those fees afraid someone else will get the rental before they do. They are paying without meeting the scammer or seeing the rental.

All models are wrong to the extent that every rule has exceptions.

So are the poor sods they are supposed to be helping! Perhaps they are not overwhelmed with heavy workloads but overwhelmed by their unfair circumstances. I absolutely agree, that there are many good people working in the social care system but there are many f***wits as well! There is no question that they are over worked, under paid and way under-resourced and the real culprits are the politicians in power. The pressure must come from the people who must move 'en masse' to pressure those in power and demand significant improvement to the social care system, on threat of removal from power. — universeness

Like I just said to Jack Cummins, how did things get so bad! I swear before the pandemic, I could call my Senior and Disability Services case worker and she answered her phone and in 5 minutes the problem would be resolved. Now no one answers the phone and calls are not returned in a timely manner. When I studied public policy and administration at the U of O it was said when someone is having a problem keeping up with the demands of a job, hire another person. Now the focus has shifted from getting the job done to cutting costs.

We were lucky and got a great doctor who has a great social worker and she is aware of the phone problem and will use her position of being inside the system to get the Senior and Disability Services to do what should have been done two weeks ago. In the meantime we are taking steps to add the gentleman to my renter's contract and the division of housing assistance has okayed him staying in my home so I am no longer in danger of losing my own housing, However, this may be turning into more of a commitment than I wanted to make. I thought this was going to be a temporary situation. My apartment is too small for me and it sure is not enough space for two people over a long period of time.

What can I say but this has been a learning experience and EVERYONE is helping me think through what I will say to the state legislature when there will be a public hearing after the beginning of the next year. The only thing I feel sure about is these people should not be left on the streets to fend for themselves!!! We must not allow the neglect of our children and challenged people and the elderly. Yes, we have many services and assistance programs but they are overwhelmed and the needs are not being met. On the good side, I have been allowed to help him without fear of eviction and in the beginning, I didn't think that was possible.

Now my concern has shifted from fear of eviction to a question of how long will this last. He likes Fox News and the 700 Club and I can't stand those shows. My computer is right next to the TV and he sleeps on the floor in the living room. I am trying to think of a way of rearranging my home so I can stay in my bedroom and he can do his thing in the living room. I hate waking him in the morning by getting on my computer and then he turns on the TV and talks to me and I can't focus on the forum. Perhaps I am spoiled because of having a home all to myself. Around the world, people live with so much less and perhaps I should work on being the person I want to be instead of being discontent with a situation I made happen.

A socialist? I advocated for the homeless in the 80's to get homeless people out of my home and here I am again.

Similar to words I typed previously, one set of hands, held out, opened and pushed forwards can do little to protect individuals from a cold blowing wind but if many other hands joined you then things can get better. It's very old but it's still very true..... UNITED, WE STAND! DIVIDED, WE FALL! — universeness

Yes, together we can do more and we can create a better reality and that is what democracy is about. Hum, what philosophers might I read to have a better understanding of working together?

↪Athena All models are wrong to the extent that every rule has exceptions. — Agent Smith

Okay, go on. You are being very tantalizing.

Years ago I became aware of a bureaucratic effort to get staff to do more independent thinking and problem-solving after a long period of control from the top, making workers afraid of doing independent thinking. This is a home issue.

What is the best way to Utopia? Liberty and power of the individual or autocratic direction from the top?
Industry, Christianity, and the military are autocratic. What is left to manifest liberty and power of the individual?

We used to laugh at Russia for its failures resulting from too much red tape and now, in the US, nothing can be done without the red tape. We have achieved this power of government and everything is breaking down.

It's not easy, that's all! I dunno how we can show the fly the way out of the bottle. Maybe that's precisely what we shouldn't be do, oui mon chéri?

In the UK there are many, many more unoccupied properties than there are homeless. Some are run down properties that could be given to the homeless for free and as long as they have water, electric and they are made sound against the weather, people could group together and 'fix them up,' themselves. Other unoccupied properties are owned by the rich abroad, who buy them for investment purposes to have 'assets' abroad. Sometimes it's even foreign governments/politicians/oligarchs that own them as a way to 'launder' their money.

This is the rich man's world we live/exist/struggle in, these are the games of the rich. The money trick, supply and demand. Keep the poor masses down and needy and this will provide a cheap labour force, military and police malleable fodder and a very large uneducated, politically ignorant populous.
Keep all their services underfunded and understaffed. Play the blame culture. Blame it on pandemics, blame it on your rich enemies like Putin. Blame it on the immigrants, blame it on market forces, blame it on lazy ungrateful workers, blame it on militant unions, blame it on over population, blame it on a shortage of housing, blame it on whatever bullshit excuse you want.
Meantime the rich and powerful who are actually, fully to blame, can get on with enjoying their wealth, power and status whilst the majority suffer.
Socialist? Humanist? Capitalist sycophant? The questions that make the difference are.
1. Who are you?
2. What do you want?
I am a socialist, a humanist, and I damn the nefarious rich and powerful to destruction.
I want economic parity for all humans, from cradle to grave.

I damn the nefarious rich and powerful to destruction. — universeness

A pox on ...

:snicker:

You need to finish what you start!

You need to finish what you start! — universeness

I can't do everything now can I? Nevertheless, a good point mon ami, a good point.

It is important to think about how the various people, especially those who have 'cognitive' problems are affected by changes which are occurring. At times, when I struggle with online communication and forms I begin to doubt my own cognitive abilities, so what must it be like for people who are really unable to read and write. Some have support and some don't.

Whether it is due to cognitive or other difficulties, it may be that an underclass is developing, of people who just are a bit outside the parameters of the mainstream. It is probably not an entirely new development but as life gets more digitalised and 'faster' there may be greater exclusion of those who find it hard to compete in the fight for resources. In the case of the most downtrodden, they may be less able to argue for their rights and be cast outside of agendas for arguing for their rights, and be a silent minority on the periphery or edge of society.

Meantime the rich and powerful who are actually, fully to blame, can get on with enjoying their wealth, power and status whilst the majority suffer. — universeness

That is the history of the world and the future of humanity until its extinction, good luck changing it without fueling the fire.

Socialist? Humanist? Capitalist sycophant? The questions that make the difference are.
1. Who are you?
2. What do you want?
I am a socialist, a humanist, and I damn the nefarious rich and powerful to destruction.
I want economic parity for all humans, from cradle to grave.

"Economic parity for all" is the biggest pipe dream in human history. However, I think you and I would agree that the playing field could be leveled a bit. A guaranteed nice standard of living for the working girl would be a nice start. But as long as we continue to elect these treasonous cowards (left and right), we get what we deserve

Unfortunately, in my opinion, you seem borderline psychotic concerning these issues. I'll tell you from experience, I thought very similar ideas in the past, until I realized it was merely a recipe for my personal misery. I didn't like it so I changed my tune. I have no advise other than to say be happy and make your life good, stop worrying about things outside of your direct control. I say this all as a friend.

Yes, together we can do more and we can create a better reality and that is what democracy is about. Hum, what philosophers might I read to have a better understanding of working together? — Athena

Certain philosophers from Socrates to Nietzsche explained the gross deficienies of democracy, while the more collectivist philosophers like Hegel and Marx potrayed it as the salvation of mankind.