My requirement is minimal: for me pro-West simply means to be in favor of being part of the Western sphere of influence like by joining NATO and EU. — neomac
No you are talking about the situation in Donbas. I'm talking about Ukraine as opposed to Russia. — neomac
it's like saying Ukraine chose Western values over submission to a dictatorship. The Russians have yet to do this. — Olivier5
Even your quotes testify that Russia's occupation is detrimental to human rights ... — Olivier5
citing AI's Ukraine report here makes a comparison with their Russia-report pertinent — jorndoe
I’m surprised by how often this is getting equated with Russian apologetics. I haven’t heard one person cheering Putin on. — Xtrix
Or, we could grow up and stop pretending that arbitrary lines around bits of the world have any meaning whatsoever about the unity of the people in them. It's your kind of nationalist bullshit that causes these problems — Isaac
Even your quotes testify that Russia's occupation is detrimental to human rights ...
— Olivier5
So? — Isaac
It's not Putin alone. — Manuel
but Ukraine shouldn't be allowing other countries to blow up the pipeline. — Manuel
But, alas, it will continue until the US and Russia decide to talk, absent intervention from another third party. It's not Putin alone. Europe too, especially the leaders of the western countries should be less bellicose. — Manuel
In what sense has this happened? — Paine
That's just the way it is. There are no alternatives to those two options. None whatsoever. Absolutely zilch in terms of other possibilities. Zero. — frank
No Ukrainians were mentioned in this proposal. So the negotiations you promote means cutting off their efforts. You are in the Isaac camp who says the quicker the Ukrainians lose, the better off they will be. — Paine
It's what exists. — Olivier5
So to repel the Russian occupation is likely conducive to improved human rights in Ukraine... — Olivier5
the party that wants to take over being the worse of the two — jorndoe
That's just the way it is. There are no alternatives to those two options. None whatsoever. Absolutely zilch in terms of other possibilities. Zero.
— frank
A compromise between say, taking a massive chunk of land or total humiliation could be possible. Clearly Russia is not going to get as much as they wanted. Nor do I think it's realistic to think for Ukraine to believe they will keep all of Ukraine, including Crimea. — Manuel
You got news the rest of the planet doesn't know about? — frank
Well then I don't see much evidence that your (4) follows. Countries with a long history of democracy and free press tend to have better internal human rights. It's not a magic pill. You don't just get human rights with membership. — Isaac
There's no question of ceding the whole of Ukraine to Russia so what possible relevance would that have to this discussion? — Isaac
The only problem with Russia is the nukes but should we really worry about that when it's time to kick ass? :fire: — Baden
You, neomac and @Olivier5 alike are all seeing this like we're choosing wallpaper. If you're choosing between A and B but to get B requires years of brutally destructive land war, then B had better be bloody fantastic. It had better have every citizen decked out with their own fucking floating island in the Mediterranean. A slightly better human rights report (but still bad) is not worth the death of thousands of innocent people. I can't believe I've just had to write that. — Isaac
You would be glad to learn that its present contribution to the defense of Ukraine is quite significant and effective. — Olivier5
For the war to end, one of two things has to happen.
1. Putin initiates and follows through on a cease fire.
2. Ukraine surrenders. — frank
What's your suggestion? — frank
At least until someone proves me wrong, of course. So try harder. — neomac
The US (or someone of similar standing) offer to broker peace talks. No more weapons drip-fed to Ukraine. Either UN/NATO on the ground or we don't take part at all. Solutions on the table should be a non-NATO Ukraine, independent Donbas, Russian Crimea as these barely change the current status quo bug might be enough to end the war. — Isaac
If America pulled the plug on the ammo supply Ukraine would surrender tomorrow. So to suggest they don't have any power is this is obviously bollocks. — Isaac
To put it simply, the U.S. position that the war must continue to severely weaken Russia, blocking negotiations, is based on a quite remarkable assumption: that facing defeat, Putin will pack his bags and slink away to a bitter fate. He will not do what he easily can: strike across Ukraine with impunity using Russia’s conventional weapons, destroying critical infrastructure and Ukrainian government buildings, attacking the supply hubs outside Ukraine, moving on to sophisticated cyberattacks against Ukrainian targets. All of this is easily within Russia’s conventional capacity, as U.S. government and the Ukrainian military command acknowledge — with the possibility of escalation to nuclear war in the not remote background.
The assumption is worth contemplating. It is too quickly evaded.
The US (or someone of similar standing) offer to broker peace talks. — Isaac
The terms of that settlement would have been for Russia to withdraw to the positions it held before launching the invasion on February 24. In exchange, Ukraine would “promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”
The tentative deal was the result of in-person peace talks Russian and Ukrainian officials held in Istanbul at the end of March. Virtual talks resumed after the meeting in Istanbul, but the two sides ultimately failed to reach a deal.
A major factor in the failed negotiated settlement was pressure from the West.
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