"NDE" is not the (existential) death-state itself so it's not informative about life after life. If it were death, then (A) it's irreversible brain decomposition would somehow reverse itself and yet no such "reports" are forthcoming and (B) irreversible brain decomposition entails absence of memory-formation and cessation of "experience" of a purported life after life. This 'folk interpretation' of a brain-state phenomenon is absurd (ludicrous) on its face and even worse under both philosophical and scientific scrutiny. I think it's far from "closed-minded" to say so.

Do OBEs and/or NDEs
take you to some other realm?

OBEs and NDEs

NDE tunnels of light and such
Can be explained by neurology,
And OBEs by a condition called sleep paralysis,
In which one is partly awake,
But cannot move.

When one is half asleep but half awake,
Or even half dead or half alive,
One is in a mixed state of both.

OBEs can also be chemically induced,
Resulting in full blown episodes.
Neither, then, are proof of a beyond,
But of an altered brain state.

I’ve had several OBEs.

In the first one,
I noted that the scene
Looked as real as real could be,
But I did nothing further
Than to float around the bedroom,
Full of amazement.

I later figured that the dream model of reality
Is the same one that is employed
When we are awake.

During the second OBE,
I rearranged the items on my end table,
Even knocking one item off.

All still felt totally real to the touch and all that,
And I was sure that I would see the evidence
Of the end table results later when I fully awoke;
But when I really awoke
I saw that nothing had been moved.

I also found that I could awake
From dreams anytime
By clenching my whole body,
And so during the third OBE
I luckily found myself in a kind of halfway state
In which my dream-arms
Were seen to be fiddling with the end table stuff
While I could also see my real arms
Just lying beside me, unmoving.

It’s not only visions that come in an OBE,
But of any sense;
Once I kept a dream song playing
For 10-15 seconds after I awoke—
It was playing only on the mind-brain ‘radio’.

I guess the moral is that
Sometimes a virtual dream reality
Cannot be told apart from the real,
Although it is always
And only the mind-brain
That puts a face on reality.

I was so sure that I was out of my body,
But one must also remember
That memory and imagination
Often images scenes from above (try it now).

When one is ‘floating’ above one’s body in an OBE,
It is not that Gravity’s laws have been repealed,
Nor is one in another dimension,
But just in the mind, as always.

It is also the case that people of different religions
See different religious symbols during NDE’s,
An indication that the phenomenon
Occurs within the mind, not without.

OBE’s are easily induced by drugs.
The fact that there are receptor sites in the brain
For such artificially produced chemicals means
That there are naturally produced
Brain chemicals that,
Under certain circumstances
(The stress of an trauma
Or an accident, for example),
Can induce any or all of the experiences
Typically associated with an NDE or OBE.

NDE’s are then nothing more than wild trips
Induced by the trauma of almost dying.

In an NDE, one is in danger of death
And so the brain is certainly not in a normal state,
Perhaps even being drained
Of oxygen and nutrients.

Lack of oxygen produces increased activity
Though disinhibition—
Mental modes that give rise to consciousness.

What about the experience of a tunnel in an NDE?
Well, the visual cortex is on the back of the brain
Where information from the retina is processed.
Lack of oxygen, plus drugs generated,
Can interfere with the normal rate
Of firing by nerve cells in this area.

When this occurs ‘stripes’ of neuronal activity
Move across the visual cortex,
Which is interpreted by the brain
As concentric rings or spirals.
These spirals may be ‘seen’ as a tunnel.

Seeing a light at the end of a tunnel
Is a result of how the visual cortex
Works in this state.

We normally only see clearly only
At about the size of a deck of cards
Held at arm’s length
(Try looking just a little away
And the clarity goes way down)—
This is the center of the tunnel
Which is caused by the neuronal stripes.

(I am not dying to have an NDE)

Can deep sleeps be regarded as NDE? Is the brain supposed to be in total unconscious or semi-conscious state during deep sleep?

What are the medical criteria for being NDE? What brings the NDE-ers back to life from near death states?

So you say complete death is needed before concluding anything about an experience that is marked by the temporary stoppage of brain activity? Completely dead people don't talk. So why not give consideration to what we can get?

I am only asking which of two types of experiences is more plausible. Common among many people, or totally different. I'm not asking what is evidence. I am more asking which is more compelling to look further into something for evidence.

They only arise if there is brain activity, if there is none, there can't be NDE's. So I think such reports should be taken with heaps of salt.

Are physics people always pretty closed in the ideas they'll consider? — TiredThinker

Yes! They banned me on all forums.

I've had sleep paralysis, but never an OBE. Just felt stuck in a body that won't move. You know there is testimony of people claiming to have floated into a different room and reported on the events in that room that nobody in the room where their body is knew but was confirmed true. Might be false statements, but certainly it is informational.

I am only referring to situations when the brain has no measurable activity.

Lol. Well done.

NDE tunnels of light and such
Can be explained by neurology — PoeticUniverse

Poetry! The form, that is. But light and nde nor sleep dream and wakey wakey cannot be explained by neurology.

Then there is no reason to suppose anything is going on, from a naturalistic perspective. And common sense too, I'd wager.

But people differ when it comes to common sense.

For reasons already given, I consider "NDE" not to be what it purports to be.

've had sleep paralysis, but never an OBE. Just felt stuck in a body that won't move. You know there is testimony of people claiming to have floated into a different room and reported on the events in that room that nobody in the room where their body is knew but was confirmed true. Might be false statements, but certainly it is informational. — TiredThinker

I've had many OBE's (up above the house and through tree tops) and I've also floated through a dark tunnel into the light after sniffing nitrous oxide. I do not believe that these are anything but illusions produced by the mind.

:up:

There's a pretty comprehensive thread on NDE's here:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/1980/evidence-of-consciousness-surviving-the-body/p1

If NDE are, on the whole, similar then that implies there's a standard exit protocol suggestive of a well-organized system in place for all the dying.

On the other hand, if NDE are random, exhibiting no common theme in them, dying is a haphazard process insofar as the brain is concerned.

Evolutionarily speaking, NDE would've been selected for because those who experience them come from a lineage of individuals who had close encounters with death but managed to survive, indicating either physical resilience/robustness or loads of luck or both, essential ingredients in the game of life. I'm not sure about this.

If NDE trait confers a survival advantage, we should see some patterns, not all are equal.

You are the first person to actually address the original question.

What is a more compelling evidence if one can call it that for consciousness after biological death. "Near death experiences" that are very similar versus those that are quite different? — TiredThinker

I can't think of a stronger inductive argument than I gave here (https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/1980/evidence-of-consciousness-surviving-the-body). Millions of firsthand corroborated accounts isn't weak evidence, by definition. This is the strongest evidence of life after death there is, period. It's consistent (as consistent as any testimonial evidence), and it comes from a variety of cultures, age groups, and happens in a variety of circumstances. The idea that it's some "folk interpretation" is ludicrous. You can't get much stronger testimonial evidence than the argument I presented. Also, to claim that the argument is absurd on its face is not to understand logic, and/or good testimonial evidence.

There is no good scientific argument against these experiences. I've listened to scientists and philosophers from around the world, and there's not one good counter-argument.

I am reading that thread currently. It appears to be 24+ pages so bare with me. Lol. Can I DM you afterwards?

You are the first person to actually address the original question. — TiredThinker

:ok:

Wikipedia has a fairly detailed account of Near-Death Experiences. Scroll down to common elements.

I would like to see (or be referenced to) cross-culture studies of NDEs? What are the common denominators among cultures? I found some of poetic universe's ideas quite interesting, but I'll take a scientific article on the topic more seriously.

I read the first page of your post. If the next 23 pages contain little more evidence of conscious existence after death than I'm honestly not convinced.

I saw no reference to particular studies. And only references to sensory experience during NDE that do not provide information unattainable by those physically present.

@TiredThinker

Lack of oxygen produces increased activity
Though disinhibition—
Mental modes that give rise to consciousness. — PoeticUniverse

PoeticUniverse's comment reminded me of an interesting fact about alcohol intoxication. Alcohol is a neural inhibitor or so I hear and so, when one drinks, the brain is actually shutting down. Now, relate that to the fact that people who are intoxicated tend to report a heightened sense of awareness and improved cognition (anecdotal?).

It appears then that powering down the brain seems to enhance consciousness. Taking that to its logical conclusion, when the brain actually shuts down in death, consciousness should max out - life after death!

Mahayana Buddhist beliefs on death and what happens to consciousness are in line with what I said above. It's said that at/after quietus, the mind, freed of its physical prison, is capable of feats that are beyond our wildest dreams.

:chin:

This might be relevant too: Erotic Asphyxiation

One of the criteria for a good inductive argument is truth of the premises, and to establish the truth of the premises used in my argument I use three criteria. First, are the testimonial accounts firsthand accounts? Second, how consistent are the accounts? They are just as consistent, if not more so, than what we might call normal testimonials (everyday testimonials). Third, can the testimonials be corroborated by doctors, nurses, family, friends, etc? In other words, the claimants are saying that while out-of-body they heard the conversations of those around them. Moreover, some describe conversations of people who are miles away, or in another room in the hospital. Mostly, NDErs describe the conversations of the nurses and doctors trying to resuscitate them. This often happens when there is no measurable brain activity and no heart beat. These conversations can be easily corroborated and have been corroborated, which gives us an objective way of validating the claims of NDErs.

An interesting study done by Dr. Michael Sabom which looked at the accuracy of NDErs claims while observing their own resuscitations during cardiac arrest. The testimony of NDErs was compared with a control group who did not claim to have an NDE. Sabom concluded that the NDErs descriptions of the resuscitations were much more accurate than the control group.

Another study by Dr. Penny Sartori also found that when comparing NDErs descriptions of their resuscitations, which were highly accurate, with a control group descriptions of their resuscitations, the control groups were very inaccurate and would often guess at what happened.

Moreover, how in the world can you possibly explain people who have been blind since birth having an OBE where they are able to see?

I can go on and on with testimonial evidence that is corroborated, but I won't.

The three ways of deciding the truth of the premises are met in my argument, along with numbers of testimonials (millions), and a variety of testimonials (different cultures, different circumstances, different age groups, etc). I don't see how anyone can write these testimonials off as anecdotal, hallucinations, the brain shutting down, or that they are illusions or delusions.

The full argument is given in my thread.

Which begs the question of how we end up in this so called prison to begin with. As far as erotic asphyxiation I hope David Carradine is in a better place now. Lol.

Which begs the question of how we end up in this so called prison to begin with. As far as erotic asphyxiation I hope David Carradine is in a better place now. Lol. — TiredThinker

It's possible that the body isn't actually a prison; does vessel make you feel better?

No, prison is pretty apt. Particularly for people with brain damage that can't really live or die.

No, prison is pretty apt. Particularly for people with brain damage that can't really live or die. — TiredThinker

What a fantastic deal, right?

I would debate some of this. I'd consider an NDE, in some instances, a de-compartmentalization from that which is entirely local ie. inside the mind, to something that is, at the very least, perhaps in relationship with the beyond, whether that is valid or not we will never know, unless God or angels or whatever make themselves available physically (doubtful), because all that we can see, know is, in fact consciousness itself, happening based on our current understanding of the dimensions we can comprehend, presently, while we are alive.

Empirically, I agree, an NDE does not confirm, nor could it ever, that there is some type of concurrent common experience we can point to that suggests an afterlife exists. It's difficult to decouple the whole I saw a tunnel and bright light at the end of it, felt warm, because of either when that story might have been told to that person, or their desire to experience something like it.

Also, I mean that whole story itself in particular makes sense. Logically, it's a way to consider access to something that so many, both conscious religious folk and antagonists or religion (likely more subsciously) and death is quite frankly the ultimate peace, so I am not surprised one would either approach their potential goodbye in relative solemnity and sense comfort in a tunnel, only to turn away from it.

The human mind is the most complex thing on this planet and we are constantly engineering circumstances. And the circumstance of a tunnel and bright light at the end of it is a metaphor we're associating with from a very early age.

What I would however say is while our thoughts are occurring on an electro-chemical level, the neurons that are firing in this state, might be in unique arrangements that bridge a kind of consciousness gap more easily, thus very much in relation to the nature of a potential other reality. The Quantum Mind is surely an interesting proposition - and one that will continue to get explored - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#:~:text=The%20quantum%20mind%20or%20quantum,function%20and%20could%20explain%20consciousness . - though it is littered with problems that Dennett in particular has addressed very well.

What I would rather say is based on an essential, earlier mentioned premise. We ARE consciousness. That's it. And consciousness is more than that which is in our mind. We are in relation to consciousness endlessly, physical or not, by the simple act of existing and recognizing consciousness itself exists.

NDE's commonality provide instead only an insight that there is a thread of sensory experience in the mind, and the potentiality for us to reach out something that feels beyond it.

It's the potential for a relationship, and validation within NDE experiencers that makes them aspire for new choices in their reality when they turn back, which is the key, rather than the definition that it is empirically true.