I don't think you're particularly well informed on the issue, then.

It’s a point of fact that government was not required for healthcare, only that it has developed a monopoly on it.

I’m just wondering if you developed ideas, principles, and corresponding behaviors in a state that promotes war, slavery, bigotry, imperialism, you name it. — NOS4A2

Yes, the United States. But since you agree that these things would occur even without the state, and that you are not convinced we should not do without the state, then your argument seems to be not that we should not think in statist terms but that the state has a legitimate role and we should think of ways to improve it.

Authority of any kind has to prove its legitimacy, especially state authority. It hasn’t. So I don’t think it has a legitimate role, nor do I think they can be improved. I do think we should stop thinking in statist terms.

It’s a point of fact that government was not required for healthcare, only that it has developed a monopoly on it. — NOS4A2

The human species hasn't ever had the kind of healthcare we have now. It's fairly expensive stuff. Do you know of a case where contemporary, state of the art healthcare is paid for entirely privately?

Authority of any kind has to prove its legitimacy, especially state authority. It hasn’t. So I don’t think it has a legitimate role — NOS4A2

And yet you say that we should not do without the state. Does this mean you accept that it should have a role, albeit illegitimate?

We have private healthcare where I live. Meanwhile, our public healthcare system is collapsing.

I think abolishing the state is a bad idea so long so long as people believe the state is required to govern their affairs.

We have private healthcare where I live. — NOS4A2

There's a private hospital? A private ICU? Privately paid heart surgery? If so, all your neighbors are deeply in debt, which is different kind of slavery.

Or it's not as privately funded as you think.

I’m only aware of private clinics, with laws varying across provinces. Provincial laws here prohibit staying overnight in a private clinic, for example, limiting access to healthcare. Meanwhile public emergency rooms are shutting their doors, unable to hire nurses and doctors, pushing back surgeries, and so on, putting entire communities at risk.

I’m only aware of private clinics — NOS4A2

If a person has a stroke, heart attack, is severely injured in some way, etc., they'll need advanced care that probably wouldn't be available to the community if private insurance is the only source of funds.

It's a problem we've never had to deal with before. If we took the role of funder and administrator away from the government, we'd have to give it to some other entity who would be pretty much identical to the government.

Meanwhile public emergency rooms are shutting their doors, unable to hire nurses and doctors, pushing back surgeries, and so on, putting entire communities at risk. — NOS4A2

The same this happening here. It's a labor shortage.

I’m not so sure about that. If the monopoly on healthcare were to fall, I’m sure men could devise some other scheme that doesn’t involve them becoming state agents.

The shortage here is entirely state manufactured. Around 2,500 health-care employees have been fired around the province for refusing to get vaccinated, for example. This was during a time when it was all hands on deck, so to speak, the system already overwhelmed. It’s no wonder people don’t want to work there anymore. At any rate, so-called universal healthcare loses its wring when very few can access it.

I’m not so sure about that. If the monopoly on healthcare were to fall, I’m sure men could devise some other scheme that doesn’t involve them becoming state agents. — NOS4A2

Sounds like the state by some other name. This isn't the only issue where centralized control is important. Telecommunications, highways, community owned forests, defense, etc. Anytime an issue comes up that effects everyone, you're going to need something like a state. States allowed us to become what we are now.

It's either go backwards or forge ahead into the unknown. I have a feeling climate change is going to make that decision for us.

The shortage here is entirely state manufactured. — NOS4A2

It's partly state manufactured here in that the way the US addressed the pandemic turned the healthcare system upside down. Staff doesn't have to hang around and take abuse for low wages now. The pandemic sort of emancipated healthcare workers. Vaccination wasn't the issue here because people could get religious exemptions.

At any rate, so-called universal healthcare loses its wring when very few can access it. — NOS4A2

A man in the UK recently died because he couldn't get an appointment with an ENT for an ear infection. He developed a brain abscess. It was partly related to their tele-health system, but it can also take a year or two to get a non-emergent appt. with an ENT in the UK. I'm actually a little horrified at how badly state-run healthcare can be, like the doctors in the UK who decided that women don't need pain meds for birth. Some women got suicidal after delivering. :grimace:

You can't legislate compassion.