Alexandr Dugin is really a "Putin whisperer" in the way he has promoted this semi-fictional historical view of Russia and it's role in the World. — ssu

Dugin's influence is often overstated. His reputation as "Putin whisperer," "Putin's Rasputin" is largely self-created. He is a shrewd self-promoter, but he is probably better known in the West than at home. In Russia he is a fixture in the imperialist nationalist circles, and he has some influence among the siloviks, but Putin doesn't talk to him; they probably never even met. Nor is it likely that Putin reads Dugin: the latter once lamented that Putin doesn't read the right books.

Ironically, Dugin's star went into decline in 2014, during Maidan revolution in Ukraine. He was fired from his position as head of a department in Moscow State University and banned from TV after he called for killing of Ukrainians. Hard to imagine now, when exactly that is being put into practice, although there is an echo in the recent firing of the chief of RT's Russian language division after he called for drowning and burning of Ukrainian children. There have been various speculations as to exactly why Dugin fell from grace, but nothing is known for certain other than that he never quite recovered from that fall.

Putin's regime is not an ideological one, and Putin doesn't need some bearded philosopher to set the agenda for him. He needs flexible, undistinguished and, above all, loyal underlings. That today Dugin's ideology resonates with Putin's is probably more a coincidence than a causal link.

Putin's regime is not an ideological one — SophistiCat

Not sure what you mean by "ideological regime", but I might disagree on that one. Putin's speeches are replete of myth-building claims, philosophical references, and civilization clash rhetoric

e.g. Ivan Ilyin is among the philosophers who directly influenced Putin, Solzhenitsyn (often cited by Putin) and Dugin.

Piotr Dutkiewicz: Mr President, I would like to return to the words you have just said, that Russia should rely on Russian values. By the way, we were talking about this at a Valdai Club meeting the day before yesterday.
I would like to ask you which Russian thinkers, scholars, anthropologists and writers do you regard as your closest soul-mates, helping you to define for yourself the values that will later become those of all Russians?
Vladimir Putin: You know, I would prefer not to say that this is Ivan Ilyin alone. I read Ilyin, I read him to this day. I have his book lying on my shelf, and I pick it up and read it from time to time. I have mentioned Berdiayev, there are other Russian thinkers. All of them are people who were thinking about Russia and its future. I am fascinated by the train of their thought, but, of course, I make allowances for the time when they were working, writing and formulating their ideas. The well-known idea about the passionarity of nations is a very interesting idea. It could be challenged – arguments around it continue to this day. But if there are debates over the ideas they formulated, these are obviously not idle ideas to say the least.
Let me remind you about nations’ passionarity. According to the author of this idea, peoples, nations, ethnic groups are like a living organism: they are born, reach the peak of their development, and then quietly grow old. Many countries, including those on the American continent, say today’s Western Europe is ageing. This is the term they use. It is hard to say whether this is right or not. But, to my mind, the idea that a nation should have an inner driving mechanism for development, a will for development and self-assertion has a leg to stand on.
We are observing that certain countries are on the rise even though they have a lot of unsolved problems. They resemble erupting volcanoes, like the one on the Spanish island, which is disgorging its lava. But there are also extinguished volcanoes, where fires are long dead and one can only hear birds singing.
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66975



And I want to close with the words of a true patriot Ivan Ilyin: “If I consider Russia my Motherland, that means that I love as a Russian, contemplate and think, sing and speak as a Russian; that I believe in the spiritual strength of the Russian people. Its spirit is my spirit; its destiny is my destiny; its suffering is my grief; and its prosperity is my joy.”
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/69465

Finland Will Allow NATO to Place Nuclear Weapons on Border With Russia (Oct 26, 2022)

Finland and Poland could potentially end up hosting nuclear weapons.
Seems sort of unlikely that it will happen (to me at least); Finland would then become a Russian neighbor (border-sharing) with nuclear arms, of which there aren't a whole lot contrary to what Putin suggested.
But, unless Russia simmers down perhaps, it could become reality, more or less following Putin's moves.
I can't help but wonder, though, if a more conflict-prone or tense world is what Putin wants.
(Chaos levels the playing field, in chaos all are equal, until someone can use order to take control — a strategy alongside divide and conquer.)
Has non-proliferation taken a backseat? :meh:

It is true that Russia is not undergoing the culture wars in which ultranationalists of other nations participate. Putin has been adept at telling them what they want to hear. But getting the thumbs up from the Russian Orthodox Church that his is a just war is important. Things would be different if they even declined to comment. But they continue to bring balloons and pom-poms to the funeral. — Paine

Just how Orthodox Russia is quite questionable as the atheism of the Soviet Union did have an effect. I am for conservative values, but when those conservative actors align with a dictatorship, I am against it. In fact nothing can be detrimental in the long run as the Russian church openly supporting a dictator, that now seems to have made quite horrific blunders.

Ironically, Dugin's star went into decline in 2014, during Maidan revolution in Ukraine. He was fired from his position as head of a department in Moscow State University and banned from TV after he called for killing of Ukrainians. — SophistiCat

Is he banned from Russian television?

I'm not so sure how much Dugin's star has faded as his speeches is quite well taken now as there is a war between Russia and Ukraine. And let's not forget that his daughter (presumable killed by the Ukrainian intelligence services trying to kill him) is now a martyr for the Russian side in this war. Obviously not the smartest moves that Ukrainians have done as Dugin is a civilian. But I guess an easier target than lawful targets as military commanders.

Finland and Poland could potentially end up hosting nuclear weapons.
Seems sort of unlikely that it will happen (to me at least); Finland would then become a Russian neighbor (border-sharing) with nuclear arms, of which there aren't a whole lot contrary to what Putin suggested. — jorndoe

I haven't seen this article, but I guess it's more of the journalists (Lauri Nurmi) imagination than anything else: if nobody hasn't talked about them and hence no official entity has forbid them, guess that means that Finland could "potentially" have them. Finland isn't even considering having permanent NATO bases. Just where they are isn't so important... as long as they are on the continent.

In my view this is a way to start working on the unity of the Finnish people for NATO: make the case into a hot potatoe and divide the people. Enjoying an 80% support is too much for some. Let's remember just what these nukes are about: the very old free fall tactical nukes that usually go with F-16. Not only would Finnish aircraft have to be upgraded for this mission (as you cannot just put B61 nuke on to a rack of any aircraft).

Not sure what you mean by "ideological regime", but I might disagree on that one. Putin's speeches are replete of myth-building claims, philosophical references, and civilization clash rhetoric — neomac

I meant that Putin's regime doesn't have a founding ideology - the kind of ideology that animates the masses, at least in its early years. Such was the case with Communist, Fascist and Islamist regimes, but "Putinism" doesn't have this pedigree. The regime's control over mass media, for example, was always a sloppy, cynical affair, in which carefully curated news and propaganda shows went hand-in-hand with Western or Western-styled TV series and commercials for Western products. (To a large degree, that remains true even today.) Alternative media was marginalized but not entirely banned. Whatever ideology there is, it is ad hoc, tactical, often inconsistent. It is pandering, rather than revolutionary, mining old tropes for ready appeal.

The ultimate proof text of Putinist ideology is Putin himself - and yes, of course, Putin has his influences. He does like citing Ilyin - a Russian monarchist political thinker, who was sympathetic to Nazism and Fascism (like I said, there is a lot of cynicism, inconsistency and fakery in this ideology, if it can even be called such).

https://nypost.com/2022/10/26/russian-anti-war-vigilantes-bomb-key-rail-route-to-belarus/

Some great work by the people @Olivier5 encourages us to

kill some more — Olivier5

of.

https://www.nobelpeaceprize.org/articles/nobel-peace-prize-for-2022

Sure hope these guys get what's coming to them too. Bloody Russians.

Came across some earlier nuclear rattling ...

Putin used a graphic of Florida getting nuked to show off new Russian weapons (Orlando Weekly; Mar 1, 2018)


^{Putin shows video of nuclear attack on US (Newsy; Mar 1, 2018; 42s youtube)}

With the new system, there is no range limitation. As you can see from this video, it can attack any target through the North Pole or the South Pole. No missile-defense system will be able to withstand it. But even this is not the end. We have developed a new strategic weapon that does not use ballistic trajectory at all, which means that missile defense will be useless against it. This is what I am going to tell you about now, this new kind of weapon, a promising weapon that Russia has developed using new, unique technology designed by our engineers. One of those systems is a small, super-powerful, nuclear energy system that can be deployed in a cruise missile-like. Its range will be 10 times higher, which means there is basically no limit. — Clip Of Russian President Vladimir Putin State of the Nation Address (C-SPAN · Mar 2, 2018)

What to make of it?

Just as I seven months ago said on this thread here:

The fact that calling the war a war is forbidden tells this totally clear. There are more political prisoners in Russia than there were in the Soviet Union in the 1970's according to some observers. The exact number is obviously unknown.

Just a year ago:

The number of political prisoners in Russia today is nearly five times higher than it was five years ago, according to the latest report from the Memorial Human Rights Center. Activists began maintaining a list of Russian political prisoners in the late 2000s, and for a long time it was made up of a few dozen names. But this tally has increased sharply since 2015. Today, the country has 420 political prisoners and is poised to catch up to the numbers seen during the twilight years of the USSR.

And now, btw, the Memorial Human Rights Center, the oldest human rights group in Russia, which now is being foreclosed. It's primary function was to record the crimes against humanity during Stalin and the Soviet Union.

Those Russians got what was coming for them in the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin. Great that the World hasn't forgotten.

I don't understand how any of that is a response to the point I was making.

I'm merely calling out @Olivier5's disgusting use of calls to nationalist violence. More disturbing still, now it seems everyone is basically fine with someone on this forum calling on people to "kill some more Russians"

I've flagged the post but clearly calling for the killing of people based on nationality is something the forum's moderators are fine with.

I somehow think a call to "kill more Americans" would not have met with such moral decrepitude.

Yes. It's horrific that such a phenomenal group have been persecuted by Putin. They were dissolved in late 2021. No one gave a fuck...

...until now, when its conveniently trotted out to justify a proxy war. No. Back then we were still happy to buy the bastard's oil and gold, still happy to have his cronies prop up the London property market...

hope these guys get what's coming to them too — Isaac

They did. At least in Belarus and Russia.

Belarus:
Government authorities have repeatedly sought to silence Ales Bialiatski. He was imprisoned from 2011 to 2014. Following large-scale demonstrations against the regime in 2020, he was again arrested. He is still detained without trial. Despite tremendous personal hardship, Mr Bialiatski has not yielded an inch in his fight for human rights and democracy in Belarus.

Russia:
Civil society actors in Russia have been subjected to threats, imprisonment, disappearance and murder for many years. As part of the government’s harassment of Memorial, the organisation was stamped early on as a “foreign agent”. In December 2021, the authorities decided that Memorial was to be forcibly liquidated and the documentation centre was to be closed permanently. The closures became effective in the following months, but the people behind Memorial refuse to be shut down. In a comment on the forced dissolution, chairman Yan Rachinsky stated, “Nobody plans to give up.”

Ukraine:
The Center for Civil Liberties was founded in Kyiv in 2007 for the purpose of advancing human rights and democracy in Ukraine. The center has taken a stand to strengthen Ukrainian civil society and pressure the authorities to make Ukraine a full-fledged democracy. To develop Ukraine into a state governed by rule of law, Center for Civil Liberties has actively advocated that Ukraine become affiliated with the International Criminal Court.
After Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Center for Civil Liberties has engaged in efforts to identify and document Russian war crimes against the Ukrainian civilian population. In collaboration with international partners, the center is playing a pioneering role with a view to holding the guilty parties accountable for their crimes... and they didn't even report war crimes from Ukrainians?!

It's like discussing with three year olds...

then when you'll be three, you'll understand it too, don't worry.

calling on people to "kill some more Russians" — Isaac

To kill a mass murderer who is on a murdering spree is morally justified.

If they keep on murdering Ukrainians, Russian troops ought to die. If they don't want to die, they are welcome to lay down arms and surrender at any time.

Russian troops ought to die. — Olivier5

And Chechen troops? Syrian troops? The mixed nationalities of Wagner and Rusich? The Ukrainians fighting on Russia's side?

You can't slither out of it that way. You said "Russians", you meant "Russians". If you meant 'invading armies' there's already a term for that.

It's just racism. Lazy racism isn't an improvement on properly planned racism.

And Chechen troops? Syrian troops? — Isaac

They too are welcome to surrender, if they don't want to die.

They too are welcome to surrender, if they don't want to die. — Olivier5

Not what I asked.

I asked why you didn't mention those nationalities if your target was the invading forces, not the Russian people.

Here's the discussion we were having - the context

if Russians mange to annex and see acknowledged the Donbas regions, it's likely that the Russians living there are not going to suffer from alleged genocide and persecutions for generations to come. — neomac

Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and Chechens lament centuries of oppression and/or persecution from Russia. — neomac

'The Chechens' haven't suffered centuries of persecution by 'The Russians' because there's no such thing as 'The Chechens' or 'The Russians' there's just people.

And in what way does changing a border solve any of this? Confining the genetically evil 'Russians' to a smaller unit? Better just to erect a massive fence to keep the bloodthirsty Orcs Russians in their place. — Isaac

Impress on them the idea that others matter and can fight back when attacked. If they fail to understand the message, kill some more Russian until the message is understood. Like done with Germany and Japan. — Olivier5

We were talking directly about @neomac's false claim that there was some contiguous entity called 'The Russians' which deservedly had the hatred of the another such entity called 'The Chechens', and you responded that 'The Russians' ought be killed until they got the message.

No mention of armies, nor invading forces. Just racist bullshit.

neomac's flase claim that there was some contiguous entity called 'The Russians' which deservedly had the hatred — Isaac

Never made such claim. You need to creatively rephrase my claims to make a point, otherwise you would quote me. I'm responsible for what I write not for what you understand.
Besides my or Olivier's position would still be plausible, even if it were false or racist as you claim.
So for what reason are you insulting me or Olivier? Besides you support humanitarianism, insults are a form a psychological violence, which doesn't sound as supportive of human wellbeing.

And let's not forget that his daughter (presumable killed by the Ukrainian intelligence services trying to kill him) — ssu

But we can't exclude that either:
Russian political analyst Dmitry Babich shed doubt on Dugin being the target, saying that Darya was “more popular than her father” at the time of the incident. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/23/will-darya-duginas-killing-influence-the-russia-ukraine-war

You need to creatively rephrase my claims to make a point, otherwise you would quote me. — neomac

I did quote you. That's what the quote function does. People can read the full posts, they're linked to the quote in question for that reason. I'm not re-pasting the entire discussion.

We were clearly talking about national identities. Anyone can read as much from simply looking back over the posts that have been linked to by the quote function.

Besides my or Olivier's position would still be plausible, even if it were false — neomac

So? I don't give a shit about plausible. I'm talking about racism. I'm talking about the perpetuation of the notion that there are distinct 'ethnic groups' of humans who have characteristics which are inherited, who can be held responsible for the crimes of their previous generations, who can be seen as more likely to repeat those crimes, who can be 'taught a lesson' as if en masse.

In short, the kind of racism you're peddling here with your stories about how 'Chechens' or 'Ukrainians' have been oppressed for generations by 'Russians'.

All the people involved in the Holodomor are dead. All the people involved in the Caucasian War are dead. Virtually all the people involved in Operation Lentil are dead. The current crop of people living in Russia, Ukraine, Chechnya have nothing whatsoever to do with those crimes - they're not responsible for them, they're not 'ethnically' more likely to commit them again, they're not genetically predisposed to that sort of thing. They are utterly irrelevant. Bringing them up perpetuates exactly the kind of ethnic animosity that drives these wars. It's disgusting.

Such was the case with Communist, Fascist and Islamist regimes, but "Putinism" doesn't have this pedigree. — SophistiCat

There might be differences, yet I’m not sure if they are enough to support your claim. The expression “Putinism” would be more insightful if it referred to distinctive/identifiable Putin’s ideological beliefs that he promotes and make a difference with his socio-cultural environment’s, but your claim that Putinism consists in “mining old tropes for ready appeal” doesn’t seem to support that, it simply suggests that Putin’s not an original ideologue. And even if, as you suggest, Putin’s motivations were cynical and not genuine by exploiting the nationalist/imperialist tropes, I wouldn’t qualify a regime “ideological” based on the honesty of its leader (and assumed it's clear what "ideological regime" is as opposed to "non-ideological regime").

I did quote you. That's what the quote function does. People can read the full posts, they're linked to the quote in question for that reason. I'm not re-pasting the entire discussion. — Isaac

Quote the original claim of mine where I stated "there was some contiguous entity called 'The Russians' which deservedly had the hatred of...", you liar.

Not what I asked. — Isaac

You ask disingenuous questions. You know perfectly well that I meant Russians forces in Ukraine and their allies, not the population of Vladivostok, Moscow or St Petersburg.

So? I don't give a shit about plausible. I'm talking about racism — Isaac

So is racism plausible or not?

They are utterly irrelevant — Isaac

Is this a factual claim or a prescription?

It's disgusting. — Isaac

I find seafood disgusting others don't. But I don't insult people for that nor object against that. Even if I managed to prove that they indeed like seafood.

I don't understand how any of that is a response to the point I was making. — Isaac

So you don't understand what you quote in your own messages?

https://www.nobelpeaceprize.org/articles/nobel-peace-prize-for-2022 — Isaac

Putin started his career extremely likely with a false flag operation killing ordinary Russians, perpetrated what could be said to be a genocidal war in Chechnya, has been against any grass roots organizations like the Memorial. And then has started this mindless war that surely will kill a lot of people more.

And for Russia to lose the unfortunate fact is that Russian soldiers are going to die. But it's not Russian civilians. Ukraine isn't making retaliatory strikes against civilian targets in Russia as Russia is doing in Ukraine.

Quote the claim of mine where I stated "there was some contiguous entity called 'The Russians' which deservedly had the hatred of..." — neomac

There's no such claim, it was a long discussion. I'm not citing the entirety of it again. As I said, people can read it from the links in the quotes provided.

You know perfectly well that I meant Russians forces in Ukraine and their allies, not the population of Vladivostok, Moscow or St Petersburg. — Olivier5

Then what you said was completely irrelevant, as shown by the context I provided. The discussion started with a comment about how 'Ukrainians' deserved a say in the control of Donbas. I disputed that such a group existed with that right. If you just want to spout off more virtue signalling about how much you dislike what the Russian forces are doing, do it in someone else's discussion, don't respond to me to do it.

So is racism plausible or no? — neomac

You have to ask?

It's disgusting. — Isaac


I find seafood disgusting others don't. But I don't insult people for that nor object against that. — neomac

Seriously? You think a dislike of racism is akin to a dislike of seafood?

Putin started his career extremely likely with a false flag operation killing ordinary Russians, perpetrated what could be said to be a genocidal war in Chechnya, has been against any grass roots organizations like the Memorial. And then has started this mindless war that surely will kill a lot of people.

And for Russia to lose the unfortunate fact is that Russian soldiers are going to die. But it's not Russian civilians. Ukraine isn't making retaliatory strikes against civilian targets in Russia as Russia is doing in Ukraine. — ssu

So?

What has any of that got to do with the discussion about the realism of ethnic groups?

Is he banned from Russian television?

I'm not so sure how much Dugin's star has faded as his speeches is quite well taken now as there is a war between Russia and Ukraine. — ssu

Yeah, I think Dugin is still in the doghouse for whatever reason. He used to have his own program, appeared on panel discussions and such. Not any more. Doesn't hold any prominent academic positions either.

And let's not forget that his daughter (presumable killed by the Ukrainian intelligence services trying to kill him) is now a martyr for the Russian side in this war. Obviously not the smartest moves that Ukrainians have done as Dugin is a civilian. But I guess an easier target than lawful targets as military commanders. — ssu

That was a very strange affair.