One can never make the pragmatic calculations of such global events, because no one knows the future, and no one knows the alternative future brought about by making a different decision. — unenlightened
ought we not? — Isaac
The damage. As I've explained above. The costs are measured in millions of lives. — Isaac
Regardless, this is about your claim that it is proper only to consider the opinion of Ukrainians when deciding whether to continue funding the war. Are you now going back on that position? — Isaac
think we ought, but I think we ought to do so carefully, with respect for differing opinions. — unenlightened
in the case of a conflict between the interests of the world and the interests of the people it represents and governs, does a government have a right or a duty to do what is best for the world? — unenlightened
The cost is not actually measured. — Olivier5
Their lack of political and legal rights lays at the root of the problem. Poverty is powerlessness. — Olivier5
I never ever professed such an opinion. — Olivier5
I have no idea what you're talking about. — Isaac
What has the pragmatic acknowledgement that Russia had legitimate security concerns (if you poke them, they'll bite), got to do with the ethics of supporting a war affecting millions according only to the objectives of those with a particular passport? — Isaac
We ought not have provoked Russia - knowing what would happen and we ought not continue to finance a war which risks the starvation of millions. — Isaac
if you believe that "lots of global events cause that level of damage - from local warlords, oppressive police, environmental pollution, poverty" why are you specifically concerned about the Ukrainian crisis? — neomac
It's the title of the thread. — Isaac
No it isn't, don't be naive. It's produced by conflicting national interests, not Steven Segal. — Isaac
Governments, NGOs, corporations, don't just make random guesses as to the impact of their interventions. — Isaac
I never ever professed such an opinion.
— Olivier5
Yeah, right. — Isaac
LOL. They do do guess, not totally randomly of course. — Olivier5
My point, instead, is that the belligerents are the ones deciding when to stop the war, and how and when to negotiate to that end. — Olivier5
And that is the case with the number of deaths attributable to the conflict outside Ukraine: nobody cares to count. In fact, a reliable body count does not even exist inside Ukraine. — Olivier5
Russia has a long history of similar views of Putin and Patrushev (or Dugin). We often forget that either the Mensheviks or the Bolsheviks weren't the only play around in Russia when it had it's Revolution and especially before the revolutions. For example, the Chornaya sotnya, the Black Hundreds, promoted an ultra-conservative right-wing idealism which supported the House of Romanov, was against any reforms to the autocracy of the Tzar and favoured ultra-nationalism and anti-semitism. Some of the sycophants of Putin's regime seem like them. And of course, in today's Russia the movement has been refounded. And btw. the movement participated in the early stages of the Russo-Ukrainian War on the side of pro-Russian separatists. — ssu
I myself was in a state of panic yesterday. Today I feel better. The night was accompanied by heavy bombardment of Ukrainian targets throughout the country, from Lviv to Donetsk. — Alexander Prokhanov
We will not make concessions, Medinsky made a mistake, what he did was not right. — Ramzan Kadyrov
This can happen because of the absurd appeasing manner of fearing "escalation". — ssu
How about reinstating the Kharkiv Pact with a neutral intact, otherwise free sovereign, Ukraine (though it could frustrate the extremists)? — jorndoe
People could get on with life. — jorndoe
Today, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), through the Agriculture Resilience Initiative - Ukraine (AGRI-Ukraine), announced a new partnership with Bayer to address the immediate and longer-term demand for corn seed among Ukrainian farmers and other countries that depend on seed from Ukraine.
no NATO in Ukraine — jorndoe
no nukes in Ukraine — jorndoe
stability + some observers helping to prevent atrocities against minorities — jorndoe
one less staging area, one less geo-worry — jorndoe
their naval base on otherwise neutral grounds — jorndoe
a chance to show bona fides goodwill + potential for gaining international trust + rekindle relations — jorndoe
saving war resources — jorndoe
possible cancellation of Sweden's + Finland's NATO applications — jorndoe
ease up some domestic tensions — jorndoe
sanctions easing up — jorndoe
demonstrate resilience against the radicals — jorndoe
Isn't that a bit hyperbolic, ↪Isaac
? You wouldn't give them a chance to do some good, helping with Ukrainian foodstuff? — jorndoe
Mykhailo Podolyak is skeptical... — jorndoe
going to take more than non-NATO membership — Isaac
already an agreement — Isaac
Does it look like Russia gives a flying fuck — Isaac
their naval base is currently in their territory — Isaac
This ship has sailed — Isaac
they can just stop — Isaac
they're a lost cause as far as the 'Western' influence Putin fears — Isaac
Do you think there's a significant opposition in Russia that would be satisfied by such an agreement? — Isaac
I think Putin is one of the radicals — Isaac
something more substantial — Isaac
It's a pattern repeated over and over - War -> reconstruction requirements -> corporate opportunity to screw everyone.
I can't think of a single example from history where that's gone well for the inhabitants. Can you? — Isaac
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