You’re essentially saying that you can control people by lying to them. That has nothing to do with the integrity of the press. Indeed, Trump is suing CNN because they frequently reported on his lies, particularly his Big Lie.

You are using CNN as an example of integrity. OK, we can be agree here that they are trying to uncovering the lies of Trump. But… what about Fox News? They are always be a media support Donald Trump. So here is when the problem begins. Who is saying the truth? Who is acting with integrity? A trump supporter would say “CNN is lying to us” meanwhile you, that don’t like Donald Trump, say that CNN is good press because they are uncovering all Donald Trump’s shit.
Nevertheless, what are the real interests of doing so? Open the eyes of the American population or just to wreck his political influence?

You are using CNN as an example of integrity. — javi2541997

No, I wrote: “Trump is suing CNN because they frequently reported on his lies, particularly his Big Lie.”

… what about Fox News? They are always be a media support Donald Trump. — javi2541997

Should they be forced to do otherwise?

you, that don’t like Donald Trump, say that CNN is good press because they are uncovering all Donald Trump’s shit. — javi2541997

Again, I wrote: “Trump is suing CNN because they frequently reported on his lies, particularly his Big Lie.”

I did not say whether or not frequently reporting on Trump’s lies was a good thing.

You said:

That has nothing to do with the integrity of the press. Indeed, Trump is suing CNN because they frequently reported on his lies, particularly his Big Lie. — praxis

You mixed up integrity with the fact that CNN frequently reported Donald’s Trump Big Lie.

Should they be forced to do otherwise? — praxis

Yes. I still think media should be impartial, objective and avoid persuading people.

I did not say whether or not frequently reporting on Trump’s lies was a good thing. — praxis

Our debate started because you said I cannot prove with facts or arguments that media tend to manipulate us in order to get some benefits for some. Nevertheless, you defended that there are some media that act with integrity. Then, you put CNN reporting Donald Trump’s lies as an example.

Our debate started because you said I cannot prove with facts or arguments that media tend to manipulate us in order to get some benefits for some. — javi2541997

I would never disagree with that. Many many forms of media try to manipulate us with the intent to benefit some and not others. I asked you who and how. Eventually, it became clear that the how is by lying and the who is anyone who lies. Politicians lie in order to manipulate others. This has nothing to do with the integrity of the press.

Nevertheless, you defended that there are some media that act with integrity. Then, you put CNN reporting Donald Trump’s lies as an example. — javi2541997

I said that politicians lying has nothing to do with the integrity press. If CNN, or anyone really, went to a press conference with Trump and he told a lie, would it show a lack of integrity to publish what he said? No, because it would simply be publishing what he said. Would it show a lack of integrity to fact-check what he said? It certainly would if the fact-checking was not factual. Would it show a lack of integrity to not fact-check what Trump said? That depends on the nature of the individual or group reporting, what their principles are and what their audience's expectations are. For example, if Breitbart started faithfully fact-checking everything that Trump said their audience would dramatically shift. They would quickly lose Trump supporters and perhaps gain some Trump critics. Nothing would prevent Breitbart from doing that, though it would no doubt be devastating to their bottom line.

Newspapers and News Networks are in business to make money and they will therefore cater to their audience.

I still think media should be impartial, objective and avoid persuading people. — javi2541997

It's not clear if you mean that their right to free speech should be curtailed or if this is just wishful thinking, like casually saying that you don't think that people should lie.

Would it show a lack of integrity to not fact-check what Trump said? That depends on the nature of the individual or group reporting, what their principles are and what their audience's expectations are. — praxis

Good argument, indeed. Nevertheless, I have to admit that it is a very difficult issue to reach. I guess that's impossible. To be honest, we have to accept that most of the information has filters, simple. But that's not necessarily always bad. What I tried to argue is the fact that we "deserve" more transparency. How? I don't know... and this context, I am lacking of information or knowledge to keep arguing in this point but I really liked what you said.

Newspapers and News Networks are in business to make money and they will therefore cater to their audience. — praxis

This is the root of everything. They need money (millions) and rich politicians (as Trump) gives them a lot of money in order to make news just for some interests.

It's not clear if you mean that their right to free speech should be curtailed or if this is just wishful thinking, like casually saying that you don't think that people should lie — praxis

No, no. What I mean is in act of free speech, they should act objectively. If we know some information or news is "thanks" to them who provide us all the "breaking news". But... sometimes I feel they have the "duty" of lying...
I mean, it looks like that's the real nature of journalism.

BUT, I am agree with you that I should not have prejudices. It is true that there are some good journalists but they don't have so much power like the big ones.

Unfortunately, being free seems to involve being free not to do what one ought to do. I had God complaining to me about this the other day.

Unfortunately, being free seems to involve being free not to do what one ought to do. — unenlightened

:up: :sparkle:

I feel they have the "duty" of lying... — javi2541997

I feel it’s my responsibility to try looking for the truth and see issues from all sides, challenging as that can be at times.

I feel it’s my responsibility to try looking for the truth and see issues from all sides — praxis

:up: :sparkle:

Today, a prominent MAGA mouth-breather, insurrectionist & conspiracy propagandist bankrupted himself & his great-grandchildren :clap:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63237092 Fuck 'em! :lol:

Trump Was Betrayed by His Diet Coke Valet

So the Mar-a-Lago employee whose interview prompted the FBI's search warrant was the White House valet responsible from bringing Trump his drinks when he pressed the Diet Coke button.

We really do live in The Onion.

Steele dossier source acquitted, in loss for special counsel Durham

So of three total indictments there were two acquitals and one plea deal with no prison time. What a pointless investigation.

, holy smokes, that's a bit. One down. :up:
(FYI, 1 billion dollars in $100 bills weigh 10 tonnes.)

What else would it or could it be:

Trump predicted Durham would uncover “the crime of the century” inside the U.S. law enforcement and intelligence agencies that investigated his campaign’s links to Russia. But so far, no one charged by the special counsel has gone to prison, and only one government employee has pleaded guilty to a criminal offense. In both trials this year, Durham argued that people deceived FBI agents, not that investigators corruptly targeted Trump.

Yet for the Trumpsters, this doesn't matter.

Judge: Trump signed court document that knowingly included false voter fraud stats

“President Trump, moreover, signed a verification swearing under oath that the incorporated, inaccurate numbers ‘are true and correct’ or ‘believed to be true and correct’ to the best of his knowledge and belief,” added Carter, an appointee of President Bill Clinton. “The emails show that President Trump knew that the specific numbers of voter fraud were wrong but continued to tout those numbers, both in court and to the public. The Court finds that these emails are sufficiently related to and in furtherance of a conspiracy to defraud the United States.”

I just wondered if there was any conncection between Trump's penchant for stealing classified materials and that reporting. — creativesoul

May still be far out ahead of my skis, but I think this classified document situation is much bigger than the information released thus far.

Well, there were already reports about documents related to some country's military defences and nuclear capabilities, and then a couple of days ago there was this:

Mar-a-Lago classified papers held U.S. secrets about Iran and China

Some of the classified documents recovered by the FBI from Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home and private club included highly sensitive intelligence regarding Iran and China, according to people familiar with the matter. If shared with others, the people said, such information could expose intelligence-gathering methods that the United States wants to keep hidden from the world.

At least one of the documents seized by the FBI describes Iran’s missile program, according to these people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe an ongoing investigation. Other documents described highly sensitive intelligence work aimed at China, they said.

Unauthorized disclosures of specific information in the documents would pose multiple risks, experts say. People aiding U.S. intelligence efforts could be endangered, and collection methods could be compromised. In addition, other countries or U.S. adversaries could retaliate against the United States for actions it has taken in secret.

Trump finally announced his candidacy for the 2024 presidential election. Get your popcorn.

Trump finally announced his candidacy for the 2024 presidential election. — NOS4A2

I hope you managed to not wet yourself with excitement.

It's bewildering. When, by any rational assessment, Trump has been a rather benign but lightweight talent, who's worst quality is perhaps his incredibly over inflated ego; yet, he continues to consistently cause many rational people to entirely lose their dignity and continues again to trigger widespread public tantrums.

There just has to be some unconscious element to all of this. It is like he is some kind of cultural mirror: when he reveals his shallow crassness, the obvious lies and obfuscations, something about the way he does it - reveals us to ourselves - us content westerners - and we can't face it.

His vileness is obvious to us - because, in our rare moments of honesty - we remember and recognise ourselves. The MAGA crowd lacks our sophistication, and our refined duplicity and so they don't see what is obvious to us: He will say anything to get ahead - as we all do and must - in a culture which increasingly demands and rewards compliance.

Well said. It is a phenomenon on the level of mass psychosis, even a religion. He’s both folk hero to his supporters and folk devil to his detractors at the same time.

Trump Derangement Syndrome. As prevalent on the right as the left…roughly.

True. Right and left are relatively meaningless in the Trumpian context. He is hated on all sides.

He will say anything to get ahead - as we all do and must - in a culture which increasingly demands and rewards compliance. — yebiga

Take the Big Lie for example, Trump is obviously trying to “get ahead” with this lie, and many are complicit in this lie because they either actually believe it or they believe their compliance will in some way serve their interests. Most Americans, however, are not complicit.

So it’s unclear to me what your point is about compliance. We could say that Trump is out of compliance with the American people or democracy, or we could say that the American people are out of compliance with Trump and his Big Lie.

Also, why do you believe that compliance is increasingly rewarded and in demand?

I intended to also include derangement of the type where Trump supporters are blind to his flaws, think he is fighting secret cabals of baby eating rich people, think he is a good christian etc.
Trump Derangement Syndrome, to me, is believing all or most of Trumps lies and/or believing all or most lies told about Trump. Its the suspension of reason because of ones strong feelings about Trump.

I think that’s a fair analysis. But, of course, there is no such syndrome. It’s less to do with mental illness and more to do with belief and propaganda. No doubt people want to believe certain things about Trump, and continue to believe certain things, even when the opposite has proven to be the case.

It’s less to do with mental illness and more to do with belief and propaganda. — NOS4A2

When I think of incidents like Jan 6th I tend to think that mental illness must play a large part, and that given the sheer volume of Trump lies and the volume of complicity with his lies, I think that TDS must be predominantly MAGA Republican.

Ya, I didnt mean it as an actual psychological condition, more of a social phenomenon. Its derangement in the layman's sense.

Its not though, its seems nearly impossible to have a rational discussion about Trump, with either side.
“He’s the worst evil!”
“Hes the saviour that delivers us from evil!”

Conversation done. This entire thread is just rephrasing this sentiment, meanwhile neither position is true.