I compare it with the alternative, which is Russia getting its way in Ukraine, which would result in attrocious consequences for both Ukrainians and Russians. — Olivier5
The decency of supporting a policy (or supporting other people with those policies) that results in thousands of people dying but ... shhh ... we do not say so? — boethius
We can say so, of course. We must. An enormous sacrifice is being paid by Ukraine for the common good, which must be recognised. — Olivier5
↪boethius I don’t know what the Ukrainians would be willing to endure. My country sacrificed 2 millions men in WW1. The USSR sacrificed 9 million men in WW2. — Olivier5
For that matter, there has been past resentment/animosity between Poland and Ukraine, yet Poles have been quite helpful to Ukrainians in the present crisis. Things change. (Also, I'm sure Poles have little patience with Nazism.) What might the reasons be? — Oct 13, 2022
By intensity of hatred, nations create in themselves the characters they imagine in their enemies. Hence it is that all passionate conflicts result in the interchange of characteristics. — George William Russell
Don't become what you hate. — Akiroq Brost
I compare it with the alternative, which is Russia getting its way in Ukraine, which would result in attrocious consequences for both Ukrainians and Russians. — Olivier5
And so we're back to the truth of the matter: It mattered/matters less than what you can make people believe. — jorndoe
No hint has been given yet what they are willing to give in exchange for peace. — Paine
But I get it, you won't actually take a position, just defer to the Ukrainians, deny any criticism of the freedom of that choice they are apparently fighting for, and evaluating our arms shipments is off limits, how confident we should be it can and will result in an good outcome for the "common good", or then if it's not enough, certainly tanks are in short supply ... can't spare them at the moment, sorry Ukraine, but we thank you for your sacrifice.
Is there a better way to paraphrase your position? — boethius
It could be, for example, that Russia gets its way and very little changes, as is the case in Crimea. — Isaac
It could be the case that Russia gets it's way at first, but solid pressure from exactly the kinds of groups who liberalised Ukraine bring about a better Russia. — Isaac
You've rejected every option for making a better life for the people of the region that isn't war... — Isaac
A lot has changed in Crimea. — Olivier5
The odds for that are minuscule. The Nazis did not reform from within. — Olivier5
I have proposed plenty of options for that. — Olivier5
Nazis are not a race. — Olivier5
Where did I do that? — Olivier5
It could be the case that Russia gets it's way at first, but solid pressure from exactly the kinds of groups who liberalised Ukraine bring about a better Russia. — Isaac
The odds for that are minuscule. The Nazis did not reform from within. — Olivier5
I said Russians could reform — Isaac
all those non-war solutions you've apparently put forward — Isaac
if you are serious about Russians 'reforming', that's what you should call for: a revolution, like the Ukrainians did at Maidan. — Olivier5
It could be the case that Russia gets it's way at first, but solid pressure from exactly the kinds of groups who liberalised Ukraine bring about a better Russia. — Isaac
if you are serious about Russians 'reforming', that's what you should call for: a revolution, like the Ukrainians did at Maidan.
— Olivier5
Yep. — Isaac
Then why did you object when I called for a revolution in Russia? — Olivier5
And why don't you hope for a Ukrainian victory, which would likely trigger a revolution in Russia? — Olivier5
Logic, anyone? — Olivier5
Nazis are not a race.
— Olivier5
Russians are, and you just likened them all to Nazis. — Isaac
"Russians" aren't a race. You can be a citizen of a nation and that does not mean you are a race of that nation, that just means being part of a national system, a state in which you are a "member". I'm not the "race" of Swedes, I'm a Swedish resident and citizen, a member of this state. — Christoffer
In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality. For example, you may have Chinese national origins and be living in Britain with a British passport.
Race also covers ethnic and racial groups. This means a group of people who all share the same protected characteristic of ethnicity or race.
A racial group can be made up of two or more distinct racial groups, for example black Britons, British Asians, British Sikhs, British Jews, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers.
You may be discriminated against because of one or more aspects of your race, for example people born in Britain to Jamaican parents could be discriminated against because they are British citizens, or because of their Jamaican national origins. — https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/race-discrimination
if the state programs you to hate, loot, rape, murder, and conduct war crimes on a systematic scale, that can be compared to how the Nazis programmed people to hate and murder people on a systematic scale. — Christoffer
Criticizing the people who follow a state doctrine that clearly conducts war crimes and systematically murder, rape, and torture civilians in a nation that the state invaded is not criticizing "the race of Russians" by comparing these citizens and the state to the Nazis. — Christoffer
Is this that hard to understand? — Christoffer
I don't really care about your personal meanings for words. — Isaac
You're factually wrong. Race does cover nationality, it is not the case that all Russians are indoctrinated and it is not the case that all Russians follow state doctrine, therefore the fact that the Nazis did not reform has no bearing on whether Russians will. Germans did reform their system. Russians can reform their system. Nazis in both cases are far less likely to do so, but since we're not discussing Nazis in either case, the comparison is irrelevant. — Isaac
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