Since all of these people are imaginary, they cannot be either really separate or really identical. (Imaginary objects cannot have real properties.) @Shawn imagines them as identical, you imagine them as separate. Therefore in his context of supposition they are identical, in yours they are separate. End of story.Santa is a person that ascribes a jolly old man over at the North Pole. He is known by two names, both "Santa Claus" and "St. Nicholas".
— Shawn
No. This is where it gets complicated. Can you demonstrate that Santa Clause is identical with those others? I would suggest to you that Santa Clause, St Nick, Kris Kringle and Father Christmas are four separate figures who work together over Christmas. — Tom Storm
'Fictitious supposed entity' does not accurately capture my meaning. — Herg
I know you claimed that 'fictional entity' is an oxymoron. I don't agree. It would be an oxymoron if calling something an entity implied that it was real, but it doesn't, because you can refer to something as an entity in a work of fiction. (There's a Star Trek episode in which there's something called the Crystalline Entity. It isn't real.) Calling something an entity does not amount a claim of real existence, only of existence in either the real world or a context of supposition. My mistake was duplication: I shouldn't have used both 'fictitious' and 'supposed'.'Fictitious supposed entity' does not accurately capture my meaning.
— Herg
Ok, what does? What form of words is satisfactorily not an oxymoron? — bongo fury
I'd forgotten that there was a real St Nicholas. He can't either be identical to, or work with, three imaginary people, because a real object and an imaginary object can't have relations with each other — neither real relations nor imaginary relations. However, an imaginary St Nick — who is an analogue, in a context of supposition, of the real St Nick — can be identical to these other three people in Shawn's context of supposition, and can be separate from them and work with them in yours.Since all of these people are imaginary, they cannot be either really separate or really identical.
— Herg
At last one of those in that list was a real man. :wink: — Tom Storm
Walmart and the North Pole both really exist — Herg
My mistake was duplication: I shouldn't have used both 'fictitious' and 'supposed'. — Herg
There are many concepts, especially in fiction and mythology, that have no actual or real existence or referent. The only thing that's real is the concept, or conceptual idea. — Sam26
but not all concepts have referents in reality, — Sam26
The only referent they might have is a fictional one, — Sam26
So they do have a referent or they don't? — bongo fury
If you're referring to what's veridical, then they have no referent. — Sam26
Nope. I know you'd like to nail words like 'real', 'entity' and 'existent' to the world we live in, so that they can't be applied to fictional or imagined objects, but it can't be done. Any word at all can be used of either real or imaginary objects. Any concept instantiated in the real world can be imagined to be instantiated in this world or some merely imagined world. 'Real' does not always mean actually real; 'existent' does not always mean actually existent. That's just the way things are.My mistake was duplication: I shouldn't have used both 'fictitious' and 'supposed'.
— Herg
Ok, but now you've done it again, with 'real' and 'existent'. — bongo fury
I don't. I was taking a bet. The odds of me winning are proportional to the amount of evidence I have that the North Pole exists. The odds of me losing are proportional to the amount of evidence I have that it doesn't. I think my bet is fairly safe, but nothing is guaranteed.Walmart and the North Pole both really exist
— Herg
But how do you know that The North Pole really exists? — RussellA
There are many concepts, especially in fiction and mythology, that have no actual or real existence or referent. The only thing that's real is the concept, or conceptual idea. — Sam26
There are many concepts... that have no actual or real existence or referent — Sam26
This qualification perhaps shows Sam was using "concept" somewhat loosely. So if we consider a fictional character, what is real - again replacing "concept" with "the use of the word" - is the use of the word. Well, this is so - what is 'real' about Santa is the way we use the word "Santa" in our Christmas antics. I don't think Sam would disagree....especially in fiction and mythology... The only thing that's real is the concept, or conceptual idea. — Sam26
Try instead "there are many ways we use words that have no actual or real existence or referent..." — Banno
"Concepts". The term is fraught with problems............in the place of wondering about the concept of democracy, consider the way we use the word "democracy".. — Banno
'Real' does not always mean actually real; 'existent' does not always mean actually existent. That's just the way things are. — Herg
Santa Claus, alas, doesn't exist. — Agent Smith
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