From an evolutionary perspective i don't think human hands will improve much beyond their current functionality. Since our brains are so highly evolved whatever we can't do with our hands we can make tools that can. This ability removes evolutionary pressure on the hands. We have and are still developing tools that can do things no animal can even begin to approach.

According to Yuval Noah Harari, our brains have actually decreased in size; as per evolutionary medicine, we have a short gestation period of approx. 9 months so that our relatively large heads can fit through women's small birth canal.

But is there a way to logically design what the next logical step would be for our hands? — TiredThinker

Extendable wrists would be good. I can't reach things on the top shelf and my cheap grabber is too feeble to lift down anything heavier than a herb jar; mostly it just dislodges things which then fall on my head. It's a way to get them, but I would prefer a more dignified way.

Extendable wrists would be good. — Vera Mont

:lol: Sounds like a pickpockets dream. Young men in crowded bars with lot's of women would also challenge each other to games called 'wandering hands,' and 'cop a feel but don't reveal!'
At least the women could slap them from a distance! Would it change the rules of boxing?

At least the women could slap them from a distance! Would it change the rules of boxing — universeness

Well, if you guys are going to abuse the innovation, I take it back. I'll invest in a better reach tool.

It's human tradition to abuse innovation. Like nuclear energy abused to produce nuclear bombs!
Extendable wrists to 'cop a feel but don't reveal,' bar games.
Sorry to disappoint you with my experience of my own trad, red blooded male thought processes.
I feel conflicting emotions. Slight shame but also happy that thinking about women is still part of my psyche. Not perhaps the most PC ways to think about what could be done with extendable wrists.
Don't let my abuse of your innovative thinking redirect your innovative thinking Vera.
I will just need to control my tendency to overburden and misappropriate the concept of extension.

Slight shame but also happy that thinking about women is still part of my psyche. — universeness

Flashback to a scene in Caveman which is prohibitively off topic. ...
.... not that an elderly person of any gender couldn't do some mischief with a grabber....

We can do a great many things and there are few things we can't do that other animals can as far as dexterity so we generally don't think about our limits. But there must be something that could be different that could allow usto do even more? — TiredThinker

Humans have already invented technologies that expand the precision & strength of hand movements. For example, surgeons routinely use robotics to do work that used to require the steady hands of doctors with exceptional eye-hand coordination, and years of training. So it seems that Culture has taken over from Nature the role of evolutionary innovator. :smile:

I assume — TiredThinker

Why would you assume when you can look it up in 7 seconds? Here's the list of animals that have opposable thumbs:

• Gorilla
• Chimpanzee
• Bonobo
• Orangutan
• Macaque
• Grivet
• Opossum
• Giant panda
• Lar gibbon
• White-cheeked gibbon

Flashback to a scene in Caveman which is prohibitively off topic. — Vera Mont

As long as it defeats the aspirations of the antinatalists!

But there must be something that could be different that could allow us to do even more? — TiredThinker

Of course there is. If we had flippers and a tail we could swim like dolphins, seals, sharks. Every animal is adapted to their environment.

It seems Opposable thumbs are adapted to using tools. That isn't to say Other forms cannot use tools but none have such dexterity to use such a wide variety of tools as the human hand: sticks, swords, bows, paintbrushes, pencils, steering wheels, surgical apparatus, keyboards etc.

Our hands are remarkable gifts from mother nature. Extremely diverse. Even our feet. For those that do not have hands but can still paint, sign, write, etc.

In essence it's about adaptability of what one has evolutionarily. And no such organism adapts so fast as humans.

Our ability to communicate and employ others hands, etc means that we can adapt to technology made by those more physically able than ourselves. Paraplegics adapt to wheelchairs. Wheelchairs were likely not made by Paraplegics but for them. Our social nature empowers us to benefit from others when our own limitations prevent us by ourselves.

Here's the list of animals that have opposable thumbs: — T Clark

Also monkeys (plus the prehensile tail!), lemurs, chameleons, some frogs, koalas, and while Perhaps not fully opposed, but quite functional are also the hands of raccoons, squirrels and rats. One might think of birds, too, though technically it's not the thumb but a toe. Not all that rare, and each time a new ability is evolved, an old one has to be sacrificed .

Evolutionary pressures aside, is a more advanced hand imaginable?

My first thought was, is that Ringo Starr? Turns out it was. Lol.

Largely primates. Got ya. Few enough that we considered having apposable thumbs a milestone that isn't taken for granted.

Evolutionary pressures aside, is a more advanced hand imaginable? — TiredThinker

Some fictional aliens have longer fingers with an extra joint. I don't see the advantage in our present environment, which we have altered to suit our specific configuration, but it might be useful in some natural environments. The fingers might also be thinner and more widely spaced, like the frog's and chameleon's. Our fat short fingers are crowded together; they get in one another's way and the cup handles are usually too big for two and too small for three, which is awkward. (Come to think of it, why is that? We know what human hands look like and how they work, so why don't we make the mugs properly? Might be a micro story subject.)

:rofl:

Boy, would that be useful in scratching inside my ear! OTH(npi) how vulnerable when chopping onions.

Also monkeys (plus the prehensile tail!), lemurs, chameleons, some frogs, koalas, — Vera Mont

You're right. I left those off the list by mistake. Thanks.

So it seems that Culture has taken over from Nature the role of evolutionary innovator. — Gnomon

You are right about this, and it should be noted that evolution can function beyond the confines of random mutation and situational selection. We are just now beginning to understand for example how to manipulate genetics in order to modify ourselves and other organisms in ways that the old form of evolution could not. With intelligent hyper-evolution it would be possible to genetically re-engineer the human hand to have fingers with ball and socket joints instead of hinge joints; alternatively you can get rid of bones all together and have fingers like tentacles. The fact that humans can take control of their own evolutionary process brings us closer to what a mature species in the universe is supposed to be like. Humanity's childhood is quickly coming to an end, and we shall not stay human for much longer. That's a good thing.

With intelligent hyper-evolution it would be possible to genetically re-engineer the human hand to have fingers with ball and socket joints instead of hinge joints; alternatively you can get rid of bones all together and have fingers like tentacles. — punos

I agree. But I'd prefer to "engineer" man-made machines, and leave DNA-made machines as they are. Our physical limitations are partly due to our mental excellence in generalized multi-tasking, so we are not stuck in a single evolutionary niche. The girl is pretty, but she might not appreciate it if I tried to wrap my tentacles around her. Yuk! :joke:

BIONIC TENTACLE ARM

That's some Dr. Strange stuff. Lol.

I think biologist Dr. George Church thinks he can modify our code just enough not to change us, but to make us unfamiliar to pretty much all viruses. Hopefully any such thing helps us and doesn't doom us.

But I'd prefer to "engineer" man-made machines, and leave DNA-made machines as they are. — Gnomon

It would also be my preference except for perhaps genetic brain augmentation like increasing the size of the brain's visual cortex coupled with a Brain Machine Interface (BMI) would be sweet. The brain's capacity needs to also be increased to deal with higher bandwidth data coming in from a BMI. An enhanced visual cortex (the brain's GPU) for instance will increase our ability to process and understand complex models and run simulations in our minds eye.

Some genetic re-engineering may have to be done on humans at some point in order to counter the physical and mental effects of living and working in non-Earth environments for extended periods of time. Our ability to genetically re-engineer ourselves will be a new form of hyper-adaptation to extreme environments.

The girl is pretty, but she might not appreciate it if I tried to wrap my tentacles around her. Yuk! :joke: — Gnomon

You don't know, 'tentacle sex' may become the norm for the post-human. :naughty:

It would also be my preference except for perhaps genetic brain augmentation like increasing the size of the brain's visual cortex coupled with a Brain Machine Interface (BMI) would be sweet. The brain's capacity needs to also be increased to deal with higher bandwidth data coming in from a BMI. An enhanced visual cortex (the brain's GPU) for instance will increase our ability to process and understand complex models and run simulations in our minds eye. — punos

I can't desire any of that for myself. I have nothing against cyborgs in principle - up to the point where they're weaponized - but don't want to be one.

I can't desire any of that for myself. I have nothing against cyborgs in principle - up to the point where they're weaponized - but don't want to be one. — Vera Mont

That's perfectly natural at this point, but future generations will think differently as they always do. Evolution takes care of our drives one way or another to move us into the next stage. It may turn out that the only way for humanity to survive is to make these types of modifications. Nature uses drives like lust, greed, love, and compassion as tools to move us in certain patterns we are mostly unaware of.

Some genetic re-engineering may have to be done on humans at some point in order to counter the physical and mental effects of living and working in non-Earth environments for extended periods of time. Our ability to genetically re-engineer ourselves will be a new form of hyper-adaptation to extreme environments. — punos

Since natural genetics takes eons to effect change, and humans are aspirational & impatient, it seems quicker & easier & cheaper -- if not aesthetically better -- to outsource our physical improvements to geneless artificial bodies. According to Google, messy, bodily-fluid swapping, STD-fraught, progeny producing, emotionally contaminated human intercourse, is currently being countered by antiseptic sex dolls, that make no long-term demands on humans. No surgical enhancements necesssary. However, some imagination is required. :joke:

PS__Seriously though, even exploring Mars is a job for robots, in the foreseeable future. Humans on Mars would have to be imprisoned in stark artificial habitats. I apologize for dampening your genetic dream, with practical considerations. On the other hand. maybe aliens already adapted to alien habitats will be available in the future for such slave-work, so we won't have to engineer them, a la Blade Runner. :wink:

NEW, IMPROVED SELF-PLEASURING

I apologize for dampening your genetic dream, with practical considerations. — Gnomon

Not at all, i perfectly agree with you. I personally believe that the human condition is merely a stepping stone to something much bigger. Like i said earlier, we won't remain human for much longer. Organic bodies like ours are not fit for life in the universe at large. This is why i usually say that humans are not some end product of evolution.

The emergence of Artificial Intelligence is the culmination of everything humans have done and learned throughout it's entire history. History, is like a cocoon in which a primitive and larval species like humans are gradually transformed into a planet-wide super-organism. The development of AI is the beginning of the last stage before the 'caterpillar' is no more.

If we choose to merge with this AI planetary super-organism we would need to be genetically modified in order to do so which would also result in a modification of our consciousness (post-human). If we don't then we won't make it too far from the Earth, and eventually the Sun will expand and take out all life on this planet and that would be the end of us and our home; the Earth will become uninhabitable way before that. Our only chance for literal salvation is to merge with the AI symbiotically. I think any planet in the universe that develops sufficiently intelligent life inevitably goes through this process themselves.