Case in point Wayfarer just now: "Who, Obama? No, he never lied! How could there possibly be evidence of that?! He was just an innocent little dove in the White House!" — Thorongil
Common man, be real now. Wouldn't you have done the same? I would. When you lead a country, everyone needs to know who the boss is - loyalty is the most important trait, otherwise you can't even have a functioning team. Trump is more of a bully than Obama and does this openly, not behind closed doors, and using political manipulation techniques as Obama did. That's the only difference so far.Doesn't know he supposed not to demand loyalty from the head of the FBI! Must have skipped that particular class. — Wayfarer
Okay, let's discuss political theory then, not concrete politics. Why do you think that the boss of the secret service shouldn't be loyal to the President? You are aware that secret services have access to a lot of information right? Do you think it's impossible for a secret service to dig up information on a President and then use it to keep him in the leash?Which is why I have decided it's better never to debate politics with you - because your politics seems basically fascistic. — Wayfarer
Wouldn't you have done the same? I would. When you lead a country, everyone needs to know who the boss is — Agustino
Of course you're not taught this stuff in class. Of course. What were you thinking? These are things you learn on the street. — Agustino
?I can't believe you say this unironically :-! — WhiskeyWhiskers
Okay, stop citing theories to me. Reality is reality. Any President out there wants to maintain his power, and prevent himself from being abused. You know how easy abuse is? What if secret serv. director comes to the President and says one day "We've received information that media group XX has compromising information about XXXX regarding you, but we've managed to stop them from releasing it. However we're not in absolute control of it, but we currently have sufficient leverage for the time being, just wanted to inform you Sir." In a couple of days will come the order too "Sir, I think doing XXX can save a lot of trouble, I'd really advise you for it"Absolutely not. The president is the head of the executive branch - not Emperor. It was at least inexcusably inappropriate (and possibly obstruction of justice) for Trump to demand loyalty from the man who may be investigating him, given the fact that he has the power to fire Comey at will.
This is a perfect example of why I asked Thorongil if he thinks Trump has a good understanding of the law, the constitution, and the meaning of the presidency (I won't even go into Trumps relationship with the truth). Trump doesn't have a bloody clue. He doesn't even have the basic common sense to see the massive, blatant conflict of interest involved in his actions. 'Oh but it's all highly subjective! There are interpretations you see! Policies are all that matter! The Presidents new clothes are magnificent!' Politics melts peoples fucking brains. — WhiskeyWhiskers
Actually no, that's not the story. The story is Trump instructed everyone else to leave the room and said, I paraphrase "I hope you can let things go. I hope you can let Flynn go. He's a good guy".Well, the story is, Trump instructed everyone else to leave the room, and then said 'I expect loyalty'. — Wayfarer
The institution of democracy is a sham. Never existed. Power always played by the same rules. Trump is not as refined as Obama, and other leaders have been. He's more raw and brutal, but he's using the same tactics they've been using, just less refined (and hence more OBVIOUS).The world is dealing with someone in the Oval Office who is literally threatening the very institution of democracy, and you don't seem to fathom why that is a problem. — Wayfarer
The truth is, even in the West we may get a knock on our door and never be seen again. But that's not always necessary. Why would anyone bother if you can be cast out as a fool, a madman? Why would anyone bother if you wield no influence? If you're not a political player? Why would anyone bother if they could instead turn you to their cause? J.F.K got shot, but that's not the only form of control. Sun Tzu exemplifies actually that violence is the WORST form of control - the least likely to work. Effective control is hidden, and you don't even realise it. If it gets to the point where someone has to knock on your door and make you disappear, then things aren't working very well at all, and the people in charge are quite dumb.And if this conversation were going on in Egypt or Turkey, then you or I might get a knock at the door, and never be seen again. Just lke Russia under the communists. — Wayfarer
Whether it's a problem or not is irrelevant. That's the cold truth of the matter.But - that's not a problem, right? Strong leadership. — Wayfarer
No, but unlike you I will not refuse to see the truth of the matter because you're too scared, and refuse to accept things as they are. I'm just saying how things are - naturally. It's fine if you want to change things - but notice that changing things entails going against nature, and therefore it requires effort. Just like, for example, the natural tendency in terms of sexuality is towards promiscuity. That doesn't mean promiscuity is right, but to remedy it, requires to be aware that this is the natural tendency. "Be wise as serpents" as the Bible says. You have to be wise - know the truth - in order to alter and change things.You are actually a fascist sympathiser, or proto-fascist, or something of that ilk — Wayfarer
Who told you I can't say it? I absolutely say there's a liar in the White House. But I'm not surprised by it like you. That's what I'd expect. It seems you think Obama wasn't a liar. Because his lies and tactics were more refined - they were "diplomatic". That's what has got you fooled - a profound misunderstanding of politics. You think some good, some bad - I think all bad.So the fact that I can say that 'there's a liar in the White House', but you cannot, is because I'm scared? — Wayfarer
That's what I'd expect. — Agustino
Nowhere have I stated that. It's just your assumption. Trump isn't my ideal President for that matter, so no, it's not precisely what I'd like to see.That's what you would like to see, is more like it. — Wayfarer
My political positions don't seek to regenerate a nation or a race. Nor do they entail violence. Nor do I have a "deep hostility" towards liberal democracy. Only that I consider it flawed, just like pretty much all other political systems I know.What defines fascism?
The combination of deep hostility towards liberal democracy with a revolutionary set of ideas to regenerate a nation or a race, with violence if deemed necessary.
Any President out there wants to maintain his power — Agustino
How do you think he made it in the business world? By being an idealistic kid? — Agustino
Yes, and I still do.I remember you used to boast something about living a moral life above all else. — WhiskeyWhiskers
Yes, living a moral life is what people SHOULD do, not what they (or at least most of them) will do, nor what you should expect them to do. What did Marcus Aurelius say? Today I will meet unjust people, deceivers, etc.What happened to that? Apparently now it doesn't apply to politics, where arguably it matters the most. — WhiskeyWhiskers
it's a waste of time talking to you. — Wayfarer
At best IMO he represents a 'fuck you' to a corrupt and self-serving political and economic system (and of course the two are intimately intertwined) and a corresponding wake up call to the representatives of this establishment to shift their priorities towards the average people who've been neglected during the last few decades. — Erik
No, but unlike you I will not refuse to see the truth of the matter because you're too scared, and refuse to accept things as they are. I'm just saying how things are - naturally. It's fine if you want to change things - but notice that changing things entails going against nature, and therefore it requires effort. Just like, for example, the natural tendency in terms of sexuality is towards promiscuity. That doesn't mean promiscuity is right, but to remedy it, requires to be aware that this is the natural tendency. "Be wise as serpents" as the Bible says. You have to be wise - know the truth - in order to alter and change things.
My question to you is why do you think people wouldn't behave naturally in a democracy? Or wouldn't tend towards natural behaviour? My further question is how do you plan to change this natural human behaviour? What would prevent it from happening? These are the questions you need to answer. — Agustino
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