Identity: an object’s identity is simply that which is most useful to think of it as being. The atoms - the physical "stuff" that make up the object - exist in the Universe and follow the laws of physics. But there is no spiritual / essential / platonic / universal identity beyond that which is intrinsic to the object. Identity is an observer-generated thing, and is subject to that observer's mental framework and goals. We organisms use our concepts of identity to model, understand, and navigate our world. — tomatohorse
I would agree with your statement, but would be sure to emphasize the "as we experience it" part of "reality as we experience it." (In other words, still recognizing an objective reality outside ourselves... but having a strong appreciation for the subjective way in which we experience that reality). It's Kant's noumena / phenomena distinction. — tomatohorse
Noumena exist, and would exist even if no one observed them. Is that what you mean when you talk about reality? — tomatohorse
can you think of any cases where the ship would not be considered the same ship? — tomatohorse
In other words, still recognizing an objective reality outside ourselves — tomatohorse
slight correction to the human body fact (which is very interesting, isn't it?) is that our neurons don't get replaced. I wonder if replacing them would result in us "feeling" any different, within our own bodies? I — tomatohorse
The ship is the same. It may have had its parts replaced. But the object, the whole ship with its holistic design, function and behaviour remains the same. — Benj96
That's the pragmatic language answer, so I agree, at least until the assumptions upon which the pragmatic utility is based remain functionally true. Theseus has the shipyard guys 'fix' his boat, and all the parts are replaced. It's his, especially in a legal sense. The shipyard guys can build a new boat with the removed parts (or have never even bothered to disassemble it) and that's a new boat now.Identity: an object’s identity is simply that which is most useful to think of it as being. — tomatohorse
Just a nit, the new policy should be cheaper, since the repaired boat is less likely to sink due to its age, and they'd need to fork out for a new boat anyway if the old beat-up one sinks. This is pretty irrelevant to the topic.Theseus has taken out an insurance policy on his ship. His monthly premiums and deductible depend on how expensive the insurance company believes his ship to be, and how likely they think it is to fail at any point. By swapping out a certain % of his ship, the "bean counters" now see it as a higher value object and need to rewrite his policy with a new quote. They send out an assessor who, for insurance purposes, sees it as a new and different ship, and writes a more expensive policy for it. — tomatohorse
Probably. Which is which?I would say...
There are 2 ships.
They are different ships. — tomatohorse
Nerve cells very much do form/replicate well after birth, but that stops at a young age. Just because new cells don't form after a while doesn't mean they retain their original atoms. They'd die if they couldn't take in new atoms (nutrients) and get rid of waste ones. Individual atoms don't hang on to their electrons even if the nuclei stick around.However I'm referring to atoms not neurons. Yes you're correct the neurons don't replicate, they stay as is for life, that isn't to say the atoms that make them up are not removed and replaced. — Benj96
Can you justify that? If the parts are moved one at a time, at which point does the identity move? What if one nail (or whatever part you designate as the critical one) is left with the ship being fixed?An object goes where its parts go. — Down The Rabbit Hole
Can you justify that? If the parts are moved one at a time, at which point does the identity move? What if one nail (or whatever part you designate as the critical one) is left with the ship being fixed? — noAxioms
Your parts change all the time, and yet you probably consider yourself to be the same person as you were earlier. Less than a thousandth of a percent of your current material is original material, so are you somebody else now? — noAxioms
But there is no one body that belongs to you since it is a different one each moment by your definition. Since you have a different body every moment, why do you not jump all around the neighborhood from one moment to the next? Or would you not notice if it did? That depends of course on if memory is part of this 'mind' you posit or part of the body.I think the best way is to say that as soon you change it, it is not the same ship.
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I have always considered "me" to be my mind. When I say something like "my body", I mean the body that belongs to me. — Down The Rabbit Hole
But there is no one body that belongs to you since it is a different one each moment by your definition. Since you have a different body every moment, why do you not jump all around the neighborhood from one moment to the next? Or would you not notice if it did? That depends of course on if memory is part of this 'mind' you posit or part of the body.
I'm asking what ties the body you've selected/inhabited in one moment to the different body you selected in the next moment, and why that 2nd body needs to be a specific one and not a random one. — noAxioms
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