This is a particularly unusual story because it involves a transgender person and assisted suicide. I am startled that the person was given an assisted suicide, unless it was the mother. — Jack Cummins
People are often wishing to kill themselves and if a person is viewed as a suicide risk they are often placed on close levels of observation, such as having a member of staff at arms length 24/7. I have known people being nursed in this way for over a year. Of course, it is not as if anyone can be on such observations permanently and often the people who do kill themselves don't tell anyone their intent and plans. — Jack Cummins
I don't think assisted suicide reflects autonomy because it requires someone else to assist in your death — Andrew4Handel
This seems like a win for terrorism to me that people can terrorise us into losing the will to live. — Andrew4Handel
Despite having had suicidal feelings over the years I don't want the state to aid in my death because since prior attempts I have found some enjoyment in life
Yes. They can also murder and maim, enslave, torture, rape and imprison us. No anti-suicide law ever stopped a terrorist, an assassin, a revolutionary, a dictator or a plain old criminal. — Vera Mont
Then don't ask for help. And if somebody offers, refuse. — Vera Mont
The mental health services should be there to help improve a mentally ill persons life. — Andrew4Handel
They are staffed by people and people have their own ideas about what they 'should'. That's autonomy.They should in no way sanctioning suicide or rationalising it. — Andrew4Handel
But they have been compromised. — Andrew4Handel
They found people are more likely to commit suicide after seeing a mental health professional. — Andrew4Handel
From my experiences the services can leave you feeling more hopeless. — Andrew4Handel
Forbidding yet another expression of personal volition doesn't improve them. — Vera Mont
So why offer assisted suicide when you don't know what underlying issues or conditions a person may have and when you may not have explored all options and diagnoses? — Andrew4Handel
If he didn't have relatives to do this they wouldn't have known his wish because of his increasing communication issues over the years. — Andrew4Handel
I think you can create a cultural that doesn't value life/longevity. — Andrew4Handel
There is extensive forms of end of life palliative care that try to reduce suffering to the minimum — Andrew4Handel
which would be somewhat lessened if everyone could choose. But they already can't: far too many old people are crammed into overloaded, understaffed, poorly run - and often horrific - facilities. Out of sight, but still a huge drain on the health-care system.current elderly care systems worldwide are already unable to address the soaring demand from fast growing numbers of older people, even in higher-income countries. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)60463-3/fulltext
I think autonomy does not make sense if you are going to kill yourself. You can't express autonomy once you are dead. — Andrew4Handel
Have you got an argument for autonomy? We don't chose to be born, we don't chose our parents, our religious upbringing, schools etc. — Andrew4Handel
I don't think we can have consistent autonomy without undermining many process in life including creating children. — Andrew4Handel
If a man or woman has young children or even older children killing themselves can create a burden for them, for surviving relatives and friends and even lead to another suicide through grief and loss. — Andrew4Handel
:death: :flower:Animal flesh is subject to the vagaries of nature; disease, injury, malfunction, debilitation and dementia. Being in this world is dangerous and ultimately fatal. All endings are inevitable; some are more gruesome and protracted than others. I just want to be allowed to make my ending no more awful than it has to be. — Vera Mont
You’re on earth. There’s no cure for that. — The Unnameable
Also conversely, a lingering illness can - does - create burdens of entrapment, helpless pity, self-sacrifice, guilt, resentment and material hardship for the family. The terminally ill parent was going to die anyway, only the children didn't first go through a long period of waiting, watching them suffer. And the spouse who can't stand that any longer and helps the patient die, often commits suicide, too, rather than go to prison. — Vera Mont
...until we attain the age of majority, whereupon we choose our studies, work, friends, lovers, homes, lifestyles, purchases, government representatives, churches, hobbies, entertainments, clothing, modes of transport, even down to the herbs in our kitchen window. — Vera Mont
n some societies married couples live with their parents or a parent moves in with a married couple. Society is less individualistic and has stronger notions of duty. Independence from others is not viewed as a good thing. Some types of dependence are seen as positive. — Andrew4Handel
In the case of Nathan Verhlest in the opening post she was neglected by her parents leading to a need for complete emotional self sufficiency
but she/he tried to transition to male to win her parents approval which didn't work unethical surgeons experimented on her body to try and make her look as male as possible because surgeons can now apparently do anything to your body that you ask for
and then society provides the poison for her to exist life after a litany of abuse neglect and medical malpractice. — Andrew4Handel
"And the spouse who can't stand that any longer and helps the patient die, often commits suicide, too," can you cite one case or more. — Andrew4Handel
For more than a decade, Dr. Daniel and Katherine Gute of Milwaukee, both approaching 80, had been planning their deaths, should one or both of them be forced to live in a nursing home or need extraordinary medical care.
‘Inseparable’ pair were reportedly ‘determined’ not to go on in life after suffering health issues...[url=http:///home-news/peter-diana-couple-suicide-pact-b1872340.html].Peter White, 72, and his wife Diana, 74,[/url] were found dead in their flat in Altrincham in January this year
He killed her and made a serious attempt on his own life but called police in desperation 12 hours later when he woke up still alive. He begged paramedics to let him die and admitted from the first 999 call that he had killed Dyanne.
That is the legal position in Canada, yes.You seem to be working under the false premise that assisted suicide is only being used on terminally ill persons or will stop their. — Andrew4Handel
How's that relevant to the assisted suicide law? People were killing themselves when it was illegal, and when it was legal, and whenever they felt it was their only escape from a fate they could not face.I was talking about how suicide in general affects others and that it is not just purely autonomous act because it has consequences for others. — Andrew4Handel
.The Euthanasia Prevention Coalition has stepped up to bankroll the man’s wife in her effort to have the courts stop her husband from using Canada’s assisted-suicide system to take his life.
But I am not sure that I can place an obligation on anyone else to help me do it. — Cuthbert
There are plenty of people ready to help voluntarily. — Vera Mont
How does that relate to torturing people too feeble to defend themselves? — Vera Mont
But they may not take the initiative. — Cuthbert
I don't know about you; I trust them to make a decision they believe to be right.The question is: do I have the right to place such an obligation on someone, even if they would be ready to take it on? — Cuthbert
They may well consider their first duty to the patient, rather than an abstract concept of 'life'. they may consider "do no harm" to include refusing to shove tubes and needles into someone who does not want to undergo a treatment, or who has explicitly refused artificial life support. DNR orders have been in effect for a long time and generally followed - unless the family too charge and countermanded the patient's wishes.For health workers: do they have the right to accept the obligation, when they have a duty to preserve life and not to take it? — Cuthbert
And was the authority that laid that "duty" on them more moral, better justified than the person's own case-by-case judgement?And it is outrageous of me to expect someone to end my life when their general and sometimes professional duty would be to hinder me from suicide. — Cuthbert
You keep pretending that's a viable option for everyone in terminal distress.Palliative care is not torture. — Andrew4Handel
And of course, if you add the depredations of covid et al, plus rapidly aging population... it's not looking like an option for everyone.In developed countries, cancer patients are relatively well provided for, with good access to palliative care units and hospices, at least in urban centers. Community hospitals and rural areas are, however, less well served, and people living with chronic noncancer diagnoses have much poorer access to specialist palliative care programs.
Prolonging someone's life is not the definition of torture.
His suicide and others like this that have happened can be viewed as political acts. — Andrew4Handel
For more than a decade, Dr. Daniel and Katherine Gute of Milwaukee, both approaching 80, had been planning their deaths, should one or both of them be forced to live in a nursing home or need extraordinary medical care. — Vera Mont
There is a lot more relevant information in the linked article that I will come back to in later posts. — Andrew4Handel
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.