I agree.So, there is nothing in the definition of God that commits a Christian to the belief that God created the world. — Bartricks
Here I suggest that you go to a Christian forum to get a more definitive answer to how actual religious Christians resolve this apparent discrepancy.Seems to me, then, that Christians are missing a trick: they are trying to square the genesis account of God's creation of a place with what we understand about how this place - the world - has come to be. But the Genesis account does not seem to be about this place at all. — Bartricks
Not only did I read it, but I'm basically agreeing with you on one of your main points. — EricH
Here I suggest that you go to a Christian forum to get a more definitive answer to how actual religious Christians resolve this apparent discrepancy. — EricH
We agree.1. If Genesis is an account of the creation of this place, then this place is approx. 6,000 years old
2. This place is approximately 5.54 billion years old
3. Therefore, Genesis is not an account of the creation of this place — Bartricks
I am arguing that they are mistaken. I keep saying: I am not asking for an account of why Christians typically believe what they believe. I am asking for a defence of it. — Bartricks
I'm not seeing much distinction between giving an account of something vs. defending it - in order to defend something you have to first give a clear explanation of what you're defending.But Christians typically do believe that God created the world. Why? — Bartricks
That was my reason for quoting the bible - I'm suggesting that there are such passages. But again - I'm not defending this. If you're looking for someone to explain/defend Christian beliefs you need to speak to people who actually believe this and are willing to defend their beliefs.But perhaps I am wrong and there are passages in the bible that really do commit the Christian to believing that God created this place. — Bartricks
But either way, I'm agreeing with you. The only point I'm trying to make here is that you're highly unlikely to find anyone out here on TPF who will spend much time defending Christian beliefs. — EricH
Has anyone given a decent response to your question? I don't have the time/energy to review the entire thread, but a quick scan shows this:I am interested - as I keep saying - in 'justificatory' reasons (aka epistemic reasons) not motivational reasons or explanatory reasons. — Bartricks
Oh do read the OP. Stop just saying stuff. — Bartricks
Again, question begging. Read the OP. — Bartricks
The OP isn't about that, is it? I — Bartricks
Have you gotten even one satisfactory response to your OP? Perhaps I overlooked one, but I don't think so.OMG. Did you read the OP? It's true by definition. What did I say someone who quetsions that is? Focus on the issue. — Bartricks
So go out to a Christian forum.Well, in my view and experience Christians are often among the ablest philosophers and some of the very best philosophers have been Christians. — Bartricks
Has anyone given a decent response to your question? — EricH
So go out to a Christian forum. — EricH
Meanwhile - you still haven't responded to my last post on the AN thread. I'm really curious to see how you re-frame the Problem of Evil when your person is not omnibenevolent. — EricH
I am not a Christian. I do believe in God. But I don't believe God created the world we live in. It doesn't look like the kind of place an all-good person would create. But Christians typically do believe that God created the world. Why? — Bartricks
no. Whatever explanation the atheist gives, the Christian can give too if they wish. If there is no need to suppose that God created this place, then all options are open — Bartricks
Just how literal one wants to get with the Bible will depend on how you read it. There is hyperbole, figurative language, and stories. The Bible says the world has 4 corners. It says geocentrism is true. It says this at least to those who interpret it that way. Religious stories are all over the ancient world and creations claims are prominent — Gregory
Exactly. And many Christians are of this view. I grew up in the Baptist tradition and we were taught that Genesis was a myth used to explain our world to a pre-scientific age. No one would have dreamed of taking this or Noah's ark story literally. That's for fundamentalists - a particular expression of religion that seems to take comfort in literalism. — Tom Storm
Do Baptists believe in demons and angels and how much is Satan a part of the religion? — Athena
The Christian 'sects' cannot even decide if they believe in monotheism or not.
An angel or a demon or even an Islamic jinn are not humans, so what are they?
Is Satan a lesser god? are angels, demons, jinn's etc lesser gods compared to humans?
If so, then Christianity's monotheistic claims are open to question, are they not?
Perhaps they could claim there is a 'godhead'/leader/originator but, according to Christians, it seems to require not only deference to it but also to its other supernatural creations such as angels! — universeness
One more thing- where does deciding what the Bible means, stop? Do Baptists believe in demons and angels and how much is Satan a part of the religion? How about slavery? Does the Bible justify slavery or make slavery taboo? What are the boundaries of deciding truth for oneself? — Athena
“God is not a Christian, God is not a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist. All of those are human systems which human beings have created to try to help us walk into the mystery of God. I honor my tradition, I walk through my tradition, but I don't think my tradition defines God, I think it only points me to God.”
― John Shelby Spong
“To read the gospels properly, I now believe, requires a knowledge of Jewish culture, Jewish symbols, Jewish icons and the tradition of Jewish storytelling. It requires an understanding of what the Jews called “midrash.” Only those people who were completely unaware of these things could ever have come to think that the gospels were meant to be read literally.”
― John Shelby Spong, Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy: A Journey into a New Christianity Through the Doorway of Matthew's Gospel
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