Hi tomatohorse-

I recommended that your thread be deleted, and not entirely due to your OP: your OP wasn't great, it wasn't well-researched and didn't really propose any philosophically interesting questions or thesis, but I was especially concerned that it was going to be extremely attractive for posters just looking to post philosophically-vacuous transphobic rants... which is exactly what had already begun to happen, leading to the thread's deletion.

Moving forward, it might be useful for you to read the site guidelines and/or TPF's guide to writing a good OP to get a better sense of what we're looking for in a thread or OP, and what sorts of things will get a thread deleted or otherwise moderated:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/480/site-guidelines
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/7110/how-to-write-an-op

I recommended that your thread be deleted, — busycuttingcrap

You're brand new on the forum and you've already been made a moderator. You don't know much about our history or way of doing things. Your decision seems precipitous and unnecessary to me. I assume you ran this past other moderators before you deleted the thread.

I had problems with @tomatohorse's OP, as I noted in the comment I posted. I agree that he didn't do much homework. On the other hand, his post had much more detail than many that are allowed here. OPs with one or two sentences and very little content are allowed all the time.

Although I thought his ideas about transgender people were ham-handed, naive, and ungenerous, they didn't seem to me they violated any of our guidelines. You seem to have made a preemptive strike based on what might happen.

While I'm at it, I'll make another request that moderators notify affected members when they delete a post or thread. At the very least it will help avoid unwelcome kvetching from loudmouth members like me.

You're brand new on the forum and you've already been made a moderator. You don't know much about our history or way of doing things. Your decision seems precipitous and unnecessary to me. I assume you ran this past other moderators before you deleted the thread. — T Clark

I'm brand new... sort of: I was a long-time member and moderator at the original Philosophy Forums, and was asked to join the moderation team here. And I am familiar with the posting guidelines and rules (which are very similar to those of the old forum).

And you'll notice that I said that I had recommended the thread to be deleted- I did not delete it myself- precisely because I'm trying to have a light touch as a moderator until I get a better feel for how the mod team here does things. The thread was deleted because my concerns were shared by other mods/admins.

The thread was deleted because my concerns were shared by other mods/admins. — busycuttingcrap

Thanks for the reasonable reply. I still think deleting the thread was unnecessary.

And welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the reasonable reply. I still think deleting the thread was unnecessary.

And welcome to the forum. — T Clark

No problem, and thank you- happy to be here!

Although I thought his ideas about transgender people were ham-handed, naive, and ungenerous, they didn't seem to me they violated any of our guidelines. — T Clark

My heart sinks when I read those sorts of OP's and there is an existing conversation much like it here already somewhere festering with overly familiar bigotries.

My heart sinks when I read those sorts of OP's and there is an existing conversation much like it here already somewhere festering with overly familiar bigotries. — Tom Storm

I didn't like it either, but it's pretty run-of-the-mill for what gets posted here. Most of the responses I read were people criticizing the OP. That's kind of the way it's supposed to work unless a post is especially egregious.

Egregious is a good word. I'm glad I had a chance to use it.

Gotcha. Thanks for the responses. Didn't mean to cause any trouble or make anyone feel bad. Sorry if I did.

I still think that issues of gender are interesting to think about and worth discussing, and so I may give it another go in a bit, from a different angle, and with some better research / sources, if that's okay.

By the way, where would be the best place to post about gender and society? Humanities and Social Sciences, or The Lounge, or another spot?

I did a thread on a similar topic if it is of any interest.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11229/changing-sex/p1

I still think that issues of gender are interesting to think about and worth discussing, and so I may give it another go in a bit, from a different angle, and with some better research / sources, if that's okay. — tomatohorse

Sure, and that's perfectly fine- its certainly not the case that any discussion about gender is out of bounds. But it is a sensitive topic, and often attracts outright transphobes (and outright transphobic posts/threads are prohibited by the site guidelines and will not be tolerated, same as with any other form of bigotry) so it has to be handled with a bit of care.

@busycuttingcrap Thanks, and that makes sense. Where would you recommend putting it?

Probably General Philosophy or Humanities and Social Sciences, depending on the angle from which you're approaching it.

Busicuttingcrap, welcome back to the fold. Once you get in, you can never leave, can you.

I still think that issues of gender are interesting to think about and worth discussing, and so I may give it another go in a bit, from a different angle, and with some better research / sources, if that's okay. — tomatohorse

Maybe if you study the topic sufficiently you’ll no longer feel compelled argue against trans-rights.

@praxis wasn’t doing so

Then you agree that transgender people should have equal rights. :up:

Affirmative.

While I'm at it, I'll make another request that moderators notify affected members when they delete a post or thread. At the very least it will help avoid unwelcome kvetching from loudmouth members like me. — T Clark

I'm surprised this doesn't happen as a matter of course.

Then you agree that transgender people should have equal rights. :up: — praxis

What does that mean?

I don't have the right to somebody else's identity. Men don't have the right to women's rights and protections.

Everyone in the west is theoretically covered by basic human rights legislation.

There is no reason for people to accept gender ideology and identities in the same way we shouldn't be forced to believe in a religion like Islam Or Christianity.
Gender ideology makes questionable claims that can be challenged and if you can't question it through allegations of transphobia then it becomes an unchallenged irrational dogma.

What do you think an acceptable way to discuss transgender identities would be?

I was a bit surprised too. I agree, it is a good standard practice.

May be you can use this thread to reframe the thread you want to start?

Men don't have the right to women's rights and protections. — Andrew4Handel

If you consider issues like abortion it seems that women have fewer rights and protections than men.

I don't have the right to somebody else's identity.

…

There is no reason for people to accept gender ideology and identities in the same way we shouldn't be forced to believe in a religion like Islam Or Christianity. — Andrew4Handel

You said it yourself. Lacking reasonable justification, the reason is that you don’t have the right to deny someone’s chosen identity, whether it be Muslim, Christian, Man, Woman, or whatever else. I can identify as a police officer at a Halloween party, for instance, and that’s perfectly fine, but it’s not fine if I do so for nefarious purposes.

Thanks, and yes, its true- philosophy is an incurable lifelong addiction... but at least one that can be fun and satisfying from time to time!

What do you think an acceptable way to discuss transgender identities would be? — Andrew4Handel

That's going to depend on what exactly you wish to discuss or what you want to say about the topic. If, for instance, all you want to discuss is whether trans people are evil (or the legitimacy of trans people merely existing), or some such, then no, that's not a debatable topic for this forum as far as I'm concerned.

The topic would need to abide by the posting guidelines (and its worth being familiar with the guidelines for OPs as well), same as any other topic- including/in particular the rules against discriminatory language (or outright hate speech, obviously) or espousing/defending blatantly bigoted views.

or the legitimacy of trans people merely existing), or some such, then no, that's not a debatable topic for this forum as far as I'm concerned. — busycuttingcrap

This something I mentioned on the now deleted thread.
There are gay men who's testimonies I can provide who identified as women and had their penises turned into pseudo vaginas. (Ask if you want links and testimonies.) They now regret this and have no sexual function and have talked about internalised homophobia among other things.

A lot of is at stake in this issue including women's identities and safety and gay identities. Same sex attraction (as opposed to genital preference) and it is all a hot political topic.

It doesn't matter whether or not we discuss it here but I think the idea of a phobia like Islamophobia distorts what is a hate motivation and what is a legitimate criticism.

Unfortunately Gender identities are able to be critiqued and rejected like religious beliefs and other claims but it is going to obviously offend the people who hold those identities.

I think it has been a mistake ever to validate certain gender concepts so that now lots of people hold bizarre beliefs and identities that they have been led to believe are valid and their is going to be a protest from those who reject these identities as invalid or harmful.

There is increasing evidence that gender ideology is harmful and especially the surgeries are un ethical.
And I believe legalising people gender beliefs and making people kowtow to them is Orwellian and making people hold false beliefs that they find crazy. As someone who grew up in a religious cult I feel in a similar situation of being made to believe someone else's ideas under pain of punishment.

This something I mentioned on the now deleted thread. — Andrew4Handel

I suppose now is as good a time as any to let you know that your posts to that thread were as much the reason for the thread's deletion as the OP. If those comments are representative of the sort of thing you want to say on this topic, you should find somewhere else to do it because that's simply not going to fly here.

There is increasing evidence that gender ideology is harmful and especially the surgeries are un ethical. — Andrew4Handel

Now this would (imo) be an angle or framing that could lead to an acceptable discussion/thread that doesn't necessarily violate site posting guidelines- there are certainly plenty of topics relating to transgenderism which would be acceptable. The point is that threads and comments cannot simply be disparaging entire groups, whether you're targeting trans people, or gay people, or members of a particular ethnicity or religion. If you want to debate the ethics of certain medical interventions, that's one thing... bashing trans people as a group is quite another, and won't be tolerated.

There is increasing evidence that gender ideology is harmful and especially the surgeries are un ethical. — Andrew4Handel

Gender ideology can certainly be dogmatic and maladaptive, and therefor cause a lot of unnecessary suffering. The obvious solution is to be less dogmatic and more adaptive. Don’t be dogmatic about traditional gender roles or compositions, for example.