Those aren't male or female traits but gender stereotypes. You shouldn't confuse the two. That said, it is correct that male gender stereotypes are valued more than female ones. It reinforces biases as people try to conform their behaviour to what's expected and the end result is a lot of sexism even from people who don't intend it. — Benkei

:up:

The best female trait (as a man) - they can be as bad or even worse than men. Just saw a probably bogus video of a woman yakuza boss in an airport. :fear:

This perhaps could be challenged by replacing should with are inclined to, no? — Outlander

Sure... but whence this inclination? If there was no such thing as socially-enforced gender roles, would females naturally (biologically?) want to wear pink and wear dresses and bake cookies? I can't think of any plausible reason why this should be so; these sorts of gender norms are social conventions (and so are often arbitrary). The reason people are "inclined to" adhere to gender roles/expectations is probably because they've been raised and bombarded with these norms and roles for their entire life, and continually enforced by their environment.... not because females are biologically inclined to bake cookies or be nurturing or whatever. .

Stereotypes, perhaps. But averaging all peoples, men are generally of larger muscle mass and perhaps as a result tire less. Life, regardless of the plush comforts of society or in the context of a single person alone on an entire planet, requires physical work. Whether the result of our current biological inclinations can be changed/altered (enter the taboo topic of "genetic trauma" which can be redeemed as the adaptability and salvageability of the human condition) does this not hold true? — Outlander

Sure. There is no denying the statistical distribution of physical traits between the sexes. But it must be remembered that this is a matter of averages, not a black and white binary choice: there are women e.g. bodybuilders, athletes, etc that are absolutely ripped, and could probably bench-press me with one hand. And then there are little shrimpy guys with the muscle mass of a child.

So there definitely are aspects of gender roles/norms that have some basis in biological variation. But that doesn't mean that all differences in traits are due to biology, and most of the traits that have been mentioned here (e.g. being caring or compassionate, nurturing, aggressive, etc) are part of sociocultural gender roles, not biological sex. Simply insisting on this distinction between sex and gender is usually enough to utterly shipwreck these kind of anti-trans arguments: no one is denying biological sex, but the transphobe/anti-trans position almost always denies gender.

It is generally more simplistic. If you invest in ‘training’/‘educating’ then the pay off comes literally decade/s down the line. It is understandable why - in an economy based on profit - many people prefer to invest in what pays off next year/month/week rather than what pays off in 20 years or so … people have to eat and sustain themselves so the majority of what they have will be invested in tomorrow, next month/year rather than further down the line. — I like sushi

It’s not a question of IF you invest in teaching/education, but HOW MUCH to invest, how much to pay those who teach - an entirely different question. We all understand that education pays off long term, but it’s much more difficult to quantify that ROI, for instance, on the basis of an individual teacher’s salary. Government funding is based on student numbers, and student numbers for each school and each classroom teacher are based on optimum numbers for demonstrated control and influence, NOT on optimum teaching-learning environments.

But I digress… the point I want to make is that teachers and nurses are not paid less because we value women less, but because we’re unable to accurately quantify the benefits of nurturing and caring roles that increase or restore the capacity of others.

I think that more females tend to take on these roles because our traditional, socially-determined interactions still focus on experiences of these unquantifiable benefits more often than they do for male socially-determined experiences, and there is less social expectation for us to demonstrate control and influence in everything we do, as a function of our individual identity.

It’s not that males have less capacity for nurturing and caring, but that they still grow up largely exposed to far less personal experiences of its intrinsic social and emotional value, and so they determine value from external measurements, observations, and demonstrations of control and influence, which are still the foundation of business, economic and government decision-making. Those doing it right are those who direct resources anyway towards the unquantifiable social and emotional value experienced in increasing or restoring human capacity.

Here is the evidence presented to the Women and equalities commission in the UK parliament on crime levels among transgender Women. From a long Term Swedish study"

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

"The researchers state: ‘male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.’ MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or
for violent offending. The group examined were those who committed to surgery, and so were more tightly defined than a population based solely on self-declaration."

These are people who are going out of their to present as female yet retaining male patterns of criminality.

"Globally, 12 million girls each year get married before the age of 18 - roughly 33,000 every day, or one every two seconds. There are some 650 million women alive today who were child brides."

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/surprising-stats-about-gender-inequality/

This happen to biological females in societies controlled by men.

MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. — Andrew4Handel

It would be interesting to know the specific offenses.

They're also 4 times more likely to experience violence so perhaps that's related. The correlation of male-to-female transsexual crime rates and male crime rates was only significant for the period prior to 1989; the time before they received mental care during and after the transition. And female-to-male transsexuals actually show male pattern crime behaviour (look at that, women with masculine traits). But with n=60 in a 30 year period these conclusions are all bullshit anyway.

These are people who are going out of their to present as female yet retaining male patterns of criminality. — Andrew4Handel

And why should that be surprising? If they were raised as male, and in a culture that bombards them with male/masculine gender norms all throughout their childhood, we wouldn't expect transitioning to immediately and completely eliminate all of the traits and behaviors encouraged and nurtured by ubiquitous gender norms, social pressure, and habituation. Its unreasonable to expect this to change overnight.

I'd be interested to see what the crime rates look like for newly transitioned trans women vs. trans women who have transitioned and been living as a woman for a longer period of time. And then there's the point Benkie already made, that trans people are usually the victim of a crime, not the perpetrator, and so panic over trans people using the bathroom that corresponds to their gender (for instance) is 100% pure horse pucky, an irrational panic over a completely fictitious threat.

No, it wouldn't because it distracts from the point that this is an irrelevancy.

No, it wouldn't because it distracts from the point that this is an irrelevancy. — Benkei

That is a beautifully - one might suspect, artfully - opaque statement.

Has someone posted an explanation yet of why most violence, sex offences and crime per se is committed by men throughout history.

It clearly isn't socialisation. There is no evidence it is socialisation and there is no evidence of a change in trends. I have never been in a formal situation where men have been encouraged to be antisocial outside of male banter (all male social situations) and the school playground. Men are spontaneously aggressive. Men and women want to do different jobs. Women aren't desperate to be car mechanics and plumbers.

I think there is some reality denial going on and a lack of evidence being presented over quite trite theories and wishful thinking.

Reality doesn't care about feelings and hypothesises.

Someone trying to behave like the opposite sex is futile. I am a male all my behaviour is male by dint of it being mine. I live as a male not a non binary multigendered invented woo entity.

There's people actually studying this, called "criminology" and they've debunked biological positivism a long time ago.The most accepted theories currently all focus on socialisation and psychology, namely:

1. social learning theory
2. the theory key life experiences shape criminal behaviour
3. strain theory
4. edgework theory
5. gender role theory

Reality doesn't care about your outdated, ill-informed, bigoted feelings and hypotheses indeed.

It would be interesting to know the specific offenses. — Vera Mont

It is too controversial people are in denial.

I posted a link to a site documenting crimes based on gender identity on another thread which you can seek out yourself

and someone here wanted the web site to get banned but the website still exist.

This whole gender identity are is now the most toxic subject on line. J K Rowling get has got numerous death threats, abuse and rape threats because of her comments in this area.

The result is a toxic environment of denial delusion and censorship which is shameful, like a lot about this period in history. Lies upon lies by people who apparently don't like reality.

I have to be careful what I say to avoid my own censorship. If I was drunk I would be more loosed lip but shame on these new tyrants censoring free speech and denying reality. Men have chopped up their penis to make a pseudo vagina. Gay men who were led to believe they could be women and now they regret it and people are enabling this social disaster to go on by lies and censorship it enrages me. I nearly feel hate towards the people enabling this.

Oh well whatever.

This topic makes me too angry.

Reality doesn't care about your outdated, ill-informed, bigoted feelings and hypotheses indeed — Benkei

Reality is that men commit most crime 95% + of violent crime and sex crime and makes up 90% of prisoners and you believe criminology has refuted that in some way?

"White entered the UK prison system as transgender. However, despite dressing as a woman, the 52-year-old had not undergone any surgery and was still legally a male. She was also a convicted paedophile and on remand for grievous bodily harm, burglary, multiple rapes and other sexual offences against women.

In September last year she was transferred to New Hall prison in West Yorkshire. During a three-month period at the female prison she sexually assaulted two other inmates."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

The decision to move White to a women’s prison was made public after she admitted in court to the sexual assault and to multiple rapes committed before she was sent to prison.

Look at the photos on this article. And feel free to explore the rest of the site.


"On December 14, footage taken at the University of Brasília (UNB) began to circulate on social media, quickly racking up viral attention. The camera-phone video clips showed a large, bearded male wearing a dress loudly screaming in the face of a female student, who appeared to be trying to get away from him.

Additional video was taken by the woman being assailed, and she can be heard pointing out the man’s obvious characteristics.

“But you’re a dude!” The female student says.

“I am not a dude! Nothing is keeping me from bringing my hand to your face. Girl, respect me! Respect me!” He is heard screaming, using a colloquial expression for ‘slapping.’"

https://reduxx.info/brazil-female-student-assaulted-by-trans-identified-male-over-washroom-access-says-she-was-afraid-of-dying/

I see your ability to read hasn't improved. You misrepresent your own research and when I point out biological positivism has been waylaid and that socialisation and psychological theories point to other reasons, I get "but men commit 95% of crime" as if you're explaining anything. Maybe stop starting threads about issues you can't wrap your tiny brain around.

"For Ritchie Herron, a bright and articulate civil servant from Newcastle, life over the past four years has become almost unbearable.It takes him ten minutes to empty his bladder, a process as painful as it is slow. Any sex drive is long gone. In fact, he says, his crotch is numb, ‘shell-shocked’ from the damage done to him under the apparent care of the NHS."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10953157/Man-suing-NHS-trans-surgery-regrets-bravely-waived-anonymity-share-ordeal.html

Battling mental health issues – and after decades of suppressing his homosexuality – Ritchie, 35, had thought the answer was to become a woman. But instead, he says, he was fast-tracked into making ‘the biggest mistake of his life’ and left infertile, incontinent and with ongoing pain.

"Today, he is one of a growing number of ‘de-transitioners’, living once again as a man and grieving his ‘mistake’. Much of his confusion was around accepting he was gay, he now acknowledges.

The irreversible operation involves removing the penis and testicles, and reforming the area to resemble female genitals.

For eight days he lay in a blur of painkillers. His first thought as he recovered his lucidity was: ‘Oh God, what have I done?’

Are you going to spam anecdotal evidence because you realise your arguments are crap?

Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS.

A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1%

That's a lot of column-inches for very few people.

This thread is depressing to me because it makes me believe that people are not interested in the truth but just what currently makes them feel good. I have posted stats in this thread including how only two of the top 100 films are about women.

I have given estimated stats about crime and inmates.

I can post another 5 stories of gay men who chopped up there penises and castrated themselves to become women and now regret and are angry at gender ideology and the encouragement they received.
I can state the case of Lia Thomas who has now been banned from women's swimming and any men who didn't start "transitioning to female" as a child.

This what is happening because people including feminists denied innate differences between men and women and tried to cure the issues of dysfunction by inventing gender identities.

How long of you got for me to illustrate my wide evidence base?

That study is highly implausible and has methodological problems.

However there is a detransition SubReddit https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

It now has 43 thousand members talking about their regrets and personal horror stories.

People are posting on You tube stories about how their vaginoplasty or phalloplasty left them in severe pain with multiple complications but then saying they didn't regret their decision.
SO even with the most heinously botched surgeries that cause life long disabilities they are motivated to say they don't regret it and undermine the ideology.

Research into detransition is being surpressed:

"Bath Spa University is conducting an internal inquiry into claims that it turned down an application for research on gender reassignment reversal because it was “potentially politically incorrect” and would attract criticism on social media.

James Caspian, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with transgender people, proposed the research about “detransitioning” to the university in south-west England, which, he said, initially approved the application.

When he went back with his preliminary findings that suggested growing numbers of young people, particularly women, were regretting gender reassignment, Bath Spa said his proposal would have to be resubmitted to the ethics committee, which rejected it."

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research

That study is highly implausible and has methodological problems. — Andrew4Handel

Of course it is! How could the American Society of Plastic Surgeons compete with Reddit for credibility?

Of course it is! How could the American Society of Plastic Surgeons compete with Reddit for credibility? — Vera Mont

Do you think people who think you can turn penis into vagina and make lots of money trying to do this have any credibility? I don't.

We wouldn't be in the the situation we are in now if people had professional integrity.

I already posted one story of a men who regretted having his penis chopped up and was a closeted gay man and can cite many more. How many is too many for you?

"Two leading transgender medics warn children should not be given puberty blockers, that too many are being given gender reassignment surgery and reveal NYT turned down their op-ed on the subject
Dr Marci Bowers and Dr Erica Anderson spoke out in Bari Weiss''s Substack letter
The pair said they were concerned by some trends for transgender youngsters

Both warned that puberty blockers could be given too young, causing irreversible consequences for a person perhaps not ready
They also said that the policy of 'affirmative care' - which has replaced 'watchful waiting' - was not necessarily benefiting people in the long run
Anderson also said she was concerned about the 'sloppy' approach to the mental health side of transitioning, and feared many would regret it "

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10058951/Leading-transgender-medics-warn-children-given-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

Of course it is! How could the American Society of Plastic Surgeons compete with Reddit for credibility? — Vera Mont

All you are doing is undermining your own credibility.

Dr Marci Bowers found it difficult to turn Jazz Jennings shrunken penis into a pseudo vagina because of it's size and under development due to puberty blockers. Marci had to put implants into Jazz's scrotum and fill them with water to create more flesh for the vaginoplasty.

Jazz Jennings developed long term depression directly after starting puberty blockers. This was also discussed on "I am Jazz"

And this was all documented on the family friendly TV "I am Jazz".

Dr Marci was born Male and had four children before having an orchiectomy and vaginoplasty in Marci's 40s Jazz will never be able to have children.

"Every single child who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2 (9 - 11 years old) has never experienced orgasm."

— Dr Marci Bowers
trans-identified
President of WPATH

And all this despite being told the differences between men and women are invented. You can stop supporting this or become part one the biggest medical malpractice crimes and social scandals in human history. Including Castrating and sterilising children and leaving them anorgamsic and emotionally stunted.

Has someone posted an explanation yet of why most violence, sex offences and crime per se is committed by men throughout history.

It clearly isn't socialisation. There is no evidence it is socialisation and there is no evidence of a change in trends. — Andrew4Handel

Nonsense. There most certainly is evidence that "socialization"- sociocultural gender norms and expectations- plays a major role in driving violence and crime, and the disparity in violence/crime rates between men and women:

"Men are disproportionately overrepresented among both perpetrators and victims of violent crime. Scholars from the men's studies movement have documented a clear link between socialization into stereotypical norms of hegemonic masculinity and an increased risk for experiencing violence."

- Toward a Transformed Approach to Prevention: Breaking the Link Between Masculinity and Violence

and

"There is strong evidence that young men who subscribe to inequitable gender norms (e.g., believe women are solely responsible for household chores and child-rearing) (Pulerwitz and Barker, 2008) and endorse dominant and hostile forms of masculinities (e.g., believe women are sexual conquests) (Pulerwitz and Barker, 2008) have higher rates of perpetrating psychological, physical, and sexual violence against women... perpetrating verbal and physical abuse, cyber bullying, and aggression towards gay, lesbian, and transgender people or those who do not conform to hetero-normative gender norms... Furthermore, studies have explored the impact of “harmful masculinities” on the health of the individual who endorses them..."

- Harmful masculinities among younger men in three countries: Psychometric study of the Man Box Scale

And also

"Masculine ideals, such as the restriction of emotional expression and the pressure to conform to expectations of dominance and aggression, may heighten the potential for boys to engage in general acts of violence including, but not limited to, bullying, assault, and/or physical and verbal aggression"

- Harmful Masculinity and Violence

and

Men who strongly adhere to traditional masculine gender norms are at increased risk for the perpetration of violent and abusive acts toward their female intimate partners

-Man enough? Masculine discrepancy stress and intimate partner violence

and who knows how many more like these. You're just wrong on the facts here.

Before I critique your studies I may as well reveal something.

I was sent to prison at 17 for an arson and spent 2 and three quarters years in prison and other time in probation hostels with men (all male environments).

Before I went into prison I subscribed to equality between the sexes was always pro women and remained that way when I came out.
So I spent a few years around men with all kinds of criminal convictions and heard first hand young mens opinion on a lot of things. I heard very little sexism, some homophobia small amounts of racism (This is in the mid 90's England)

From one of your studies:
"There is strong evidence that young men who subscribe to inequitable gender norms (e.g., believe women are solely responsible for household chores and child-rearing) (Pulerwitz and Barker, 2008) and endorse dominant and hostile forms of masculinities (e.g., believe women are sexual conquests) (Pulerwitz and Barker, 2008) have higher rates of perpetrating psychological, physical, and sexual violence against women"

Well that is stating the obvious. Men that abuse women have a low opinion of women. In my experience most men were not in for assaulting women and did not have a low opinion of women unless you consider having pornographic images of women on prison cells demeaning to women.

I will look for a counter study for this but women sometimes hold a low opinion of other women and that does not translate into them becoming criminals. My mother gave up her job as a teacher when she married.