Disgust is sometimes an appropriate emotion. It can be a sign of rationality, ethical sense and confronting dysfunction and injustice. — Andrew4Handel
I'm disgusted with your bigotry. Happy? — Benkei
Gender dysphoria is a legitimate medical condition, — busycuttingcrap
This is just a tad suspect. It is a mental health condition. Alien limb syndrome is not treated by surgery, and generally it seems that to treat psychological conditions with surgery is suspect, at the least. — unenlightened
It is at least legitimate to wonder whether it is ethical to allow, let alone encourage conformity to such social norms through surgery, and to pretend that individual wishes in such matters are not very heavily socially constructed would be ridiculous.
FGM is outlawed because it results entirely from social pressure, and the relation to gender dysphoria is obvious. The tendency to overemphasise the autonomy of the individual and ignore the huge force of social pressures is itself the result of a current social pressure to conform. Body shaming is the basis of a huge, huge industry, that pretends it bears no relation to those primitive customs. — unenlightened
This is just a tad suspect. It is a mental health condition. Alien limb syndrome is not treated by surgery, and generally it seems that to treat psychological conditions with surgery is suspect, at the least. One might better compare such surgical interventions more with cosmetic surgery than knee surgery or the like. — unenlightened
To me censoring or vilifying people for misgendering people and making me or others call a Male "She" or a Female "He" is undermining the quest for truth and transparency and authenticity. — Andrew4Handel
This is just a tad suspect. It is a mental health condition. Alien limb syndrome is not treated by surgery, and generally it seems that to treat psychological conditions with surgery is suspect, at the least. One might better compare such surgical interventions more with cosmetic surgery than knee surgery or the like. — unenlightened
I thought philosophy was The Love of Knowledge and was really concerned about the nature of truth and reality.
To me censoring or vilifying people for misgendering people and making me or others call a Male "She" or a Female "He" is undermining the quest for truth and transparency and authenticity.
It is Undermining people personal beliefs it is engaging in a reality denying exercise and trying to suck society in to it. Getting people to deny their senses when they see a male looking person enter a women toilets. Gaslighting people.
I have called people who are clearly male "she" to be kind and this was before people started chanting "Trans men are men" and demanded we view trans and biological sex as interchangeable and equivalent.
It is a major assault on the truth. It is not a trivial or solely personal issue it effects relationships between people and peoples children are being told they can be born in the wrong body and set on the course for sterilisation and becoming a life long medical patient.
My being gay does not hinge on the approval of others it is not propped up by making people have particular thoughts about me.
Telling people they are hateful for not believing a man can become a woman, opposing child transition and destructive genital surgeries
that is a major psychological exercise at undermining peoples sense of reason and strongly held reality beliefs to follow what amounts to a personal and group religious ideology of invisible gender souls. — Andrew4Handel
My instinct on that is that transitioning isn't seen as mandatory, just as permissible. People seem to want it despite societal expectations and perceptions of ickiness. "Thou shalt not be icky" and "thou shalt respect no one who desires the ick" are hallmarks of conformity pressure away from the seen-as-icky thing, like the true variation in feminine bodies or homosexuality... But the seen-as-icky thing in this case is transitioning, and the transitioned body. "Thou shalt ick" is the opposite tendency. — fdrake
it is the decision of some other person to alter their own body, with the aid of skilled professionals willing to perform the operations. — Vera Mont
So, if a man wishes his penis removed, should he be granted that right, and, if so, should the same right be afforded the man who no longer wants his right arm? — Hanover
gender dysphoria, like homosexuality, used to be classified as a mental illness only to have that classification subsequently corrected, and now is not considered a mental illness by credible health organizations or professionals — busycuttingcrap
Misgendering trans people is engaging in falsehood and deception — busycuttingcrap
gender dysphoria, like homosexuality, used to be classified as a mental illness... — busycuttingcrap
My instincts are different. 'Thou shalt not be icky' is indeed a powerful commandment, but at the same time, anyone who does not conform to extremely narrow stereotypes of appearance and behaviour is already icky, and thereby in physical danger all day, every day. And under this lifelong threat, people "choose" whatever desperate measure promises a chance of sainted 'normality' and if not real acceptance, at least some blessed invisibility. The hatred of difference is already visible even in this very tolerant discussion site. — unenlightened
The perennial 'discussion' is about what what we should allow other people to do with their bodies. — Vera Mont
This reads to me like an expression of disgust towards trans and gender non-conforming bodies. While your confusion toward all this is understandable - the issue is complex, expressing yourself in this manner is not. You must keep it respectful. — fdrake
"For Ritchie Herron, a bright and articulate civil servant from Newcastle, life over the past four years has become almost unbearable.It takes him ten minutes to empty his bladder, a process as painful as it is slow. Any sex drive is long gone. In fact, he says, his crotch is numb, ‘shell-shocked’ from the damage done to him under the apparent care of the NHS."
Battling mental health issues – and after decades of suppressing his homosexuality – Ritchie, 35, had thought the answer was to become a woman. But instead, he says, he was fast-tracked into making ‘the biggest mistake of his life’ and left infertile, incontinent and with ongoing pain. — Andrew4Handel
"But soon after the operation was complete in 2015 in his mid-20s,Shape Shifter quickly realized he had made a terrible mistake, and that he was just a gay man who enjoyed presenting in a feminine way.
The procedures he has undergone - which include the removal of his penis and the creation of a 'neo-vagina' are irreversible. — Andrew4Handel
So, if a man wishes his penis removed, should he be granted that right, and, if so, should the same right be afforded the man who no longer wants his right arm?
So out goes drinking ages, drug laws, ages of consent, euthanasia? — Isaac
We discourage people from doing what they like with their own bodies all the time. — Isaac
I don't doubt in some neo-liberal utopia we're all free to do exactly what we want without having to consider our affects of others, but here in the real world we ought do exactly that. — Isaac
The argument that gender affirming surgery is harmful is not cut and dried, but it can't be dismissed by such gross oversimplification as 'it's their body, they can do what they like with it'. — Isaac
The desire to have a vagina or no arm is just that, a desire. The belief that a man is a woman is just that, a belief. — NOS4A2
it may equally be their essence showing itself. — fdrake
And therefore refusal to believe it trumps their right to act on it? Again, on what grounds?
There is a distinction between discourage and forbid — Vera Mont
What is the harm, to whom? — Vera Mont
So it trumps no right. — NOS4A2
No one is arguing gender-surgery ought be forbidden, so the distinction is irrelevant. — Isaac
Potential harms to others? Do you mean that attitudes might change? Organizations and social structures might change? They will anyway. Not sure I can see it as harmful.I've already outlined the potential harms, — Isaac
No one is arguing gender-surgery ought be forbidden, so the distinction is irrelevant. — Isaac
No-one is arguing that? I'm surprised. — Vera Mont
Potential harms to others? — Vera Mont
Do you mean that attitudes might change? Organizations and social structures might change? They will anyway. — Vera Mont
Not sure I can see it as harmful. — Vera Mont
He should granted the right on the grounds of self-ownership alone, but self-surgery is dangerous. So should he be provided with a professional to do it for him, and a setting in which to do it? I don’t think so. — NOS4A2
isn’t clear whether these kinds of surgeries are life-saving or cosmetic. The symptoms are often centered around beliefs and desires. The desire to have a vagina or no arm is just that, a desire. The belief that a man is a woman is just that, a belief. Worse, such surgeries hinder proper bodily function, and as such arguably make one worse off. This is why such surgeries should be relegated to the cosmetic type where access depends on whether you can find it in the market. — NOS4A2
Are you suggesting it is impossible for such institutions to change for the worse? — Isaac
"It is no part of anyone's essence to be ashamed of themselves or have any negative feelings about their body, (or for that matter, any pride or positive feelings). Such feelings can only arise in a social setting through comparison with others. — unenlightened
You don't have an argument there, you are just reciting the received opinions and describing the status quo. Why isn't surgery appropriate in some mental cases, but appropriate in others? — unenlightened
mental health conditions are medical conditions, — busycuttingcrap
If your position is simply 'everything we're told is true' then you're not responding to the arguments you're simply not engaging. — Isaac
It used to be considered such by the very medical professionals whose current opinion you're now treating as gospel. — Isaac
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