So homosexuality was declassified as a mental illness due to a compelling body of evidence showing homosexuality to be a normal, natural, and healthy variation of human sexuality. — busycuttingcrap

But see:

The NYT article quoting an APA committee member explaining his reason for the shift in views on homosexuality as follows:

"The criteria I propose applies to almost all of the conditions that are generally considered psychiatric disorders: The condition must either regularly cause subjective distress or regularly be associated with some generalized impairment in social effectiveness or functioning."

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/12/23/archives/the-issue-is-subtle-the-debate-still-on-the-apa-ruling-on.html

This makes explicit reference to social functioning, which implicates societal reaction to the behavior and the stress it places on the person. That is, we might need to treat homosexuality not because it is per se unhealthy, but because society makes life very difficult for the homosexual to function in. It would follow therefore that if we can have societal acceptance of transexuality, that would alleviate the need to categorize gender (which is a social construct anyway) dysphoria as an illness.

I took that to be @unenlightened point, which is that he was troubled by the categorization of illness being based upon social acceptance. This does not diminish the suffering of transexuals, but recognizes that suffering is caused by social forces and not internal ones.

This would then draw a distinction between certain types of mental illnesses, as those related to social ostracization and those that appear to be organic disorders, like schizophrenia, for example, where the dysfunction will occur regardless of how accepting society is of the schizophrenia.

Gender dysphoria cannot exist in a society where gender roles are not identified. Schizophrenia isn't so societaly dependent.

This makes the diagnosis of gender dysphoria a social statement with a severity dependent upon the society one lives in. Medicalizing the defiance of cultural norms is to medicalize non-conformity. I would expect therefore that the APA will eventually stop viewing transexuality as a medical diagnosis, with its primary reason for not now doing so is that treatment cannot be authorized or paid for without the diagnosis, which now implicates political reasons for its classifications.

EDIT: It's interesting how on the issue of homosexuality the label of it being a disorder was lifted to eliminate the stigma, but with transexuals, the label is demanded for validation. I don't know what this means other than that psychology forms its diagnosis for pragmatic reasons and that likely leaves some questioning the validity of it as a field. I don't, but I can see how forming decisions on the basis of non-scientific reasons raises flags for some.

Where was that? — Vera Mont

I took the questions in...

If a man who feels acutely uncomfortable in the role of a man, because he knows he is meant to be a woman, and decides to have his external appearance altered to match his internal self-image, and he is happy with the result, that's a benefit for her. What is the harm, to whom?
If one such altered person in a hundred later regret their choice, that is his decisions doing harm to herself. Who else being harmed?
If then the 99 others who would benefit from the same alteration are prevented from doing so, just in case they might regret it later, that 99 unhappy people who for the rest of their lives bring little joy to anyone around them. Where is the benefit? (And that's even without asking why that one regretted his choice. Was it perhaps because bigots made her new life difficult?) — Vera Mont

...to be rhetorical. Tone is not an easy thing to communicate in short written comments.

If not, then...who else is being harmed?

All other transexuals, depressed people, autistics, schizophrenics, anorexics, bulimics...and so on. Basically anyone who really ought to benefit from society adapting to their neurodiversity but instead now suffers from an increase in the trend to see the fault as being located in their biology, not society's attitude toward them.

...to be rhetorical. — Isaac

It wasn't. These are important questions.

f not, then...who else is being harmed?
All other transexuals, depressed people, autistics, schizophrenics, anorexics, bulimics...and so on. Basically anyone who really ought to benefit from society adapting to their neurodiversity but instead now suffers from an increase in the trend to see the fault as being located in their biology, not society's attitude toward them. — Isaac

All that harm is being done by a few thousand people being surgically altered? Interesting opinion, and I have no doubt it's sincere. Nor do I doubt that those who can and will never accept transsexual conduct by biological males and females are sincere in their opinion.

Its pretty straightforward, tbh: gender dysphoria is by all accounts quite miserable, hence the increased rate of e.g. depression, suicide, etc, and gender-affirming surgery is both relatively safe as far as major surgery goes and has a strong positive effect on mental health. And in any case, if gender-affirming surgery scares you so much, there's an easy solution: don't have any.

My question for you is, why do you care so much about what other people are doing, especially if they find it helpful? Why are you obsessed with this particular type of surgery? I don't hear you going on about plastic surgery or other medical interventions that carry similar amounts of risk, so what is it that makes you so worried about this particular type of surgery and not any others? It couldn't have anything to do with your obvious prejudice towards trans people/transexuality, could it? — busycuttingcrap

I think this covers off on the key points rather well. The trans people I know have had their lives transformed for the better - freedom, happiness, clarity - by becoming the gender they identify as.

Allowing men to identify legally and socially as women is objectively harmful.

Calling men "women" legally is a legal lie. It lies to society and women about biological males and for example it has led to male rapists and murderers being referred to as "she" in court and put in women's prisons. It has made female victims of male crimes be told to refer to the perpetrator as "she" in court or get charged with contempt of court.

I have already cited the case of Karen White https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

So does society really believe these men are women? I don't for certain. Are we to everyone on behalf of sparing someone's feelings or subjective self assessment and desires.

An absurd situation would be is someone like Caitlyn Jenner went to the Moon would we call Caitlyn the first woman on the moon? Are we going to call a man "the first woman on the moon" or the first Female X and allow them to take credit for what is intended for women. (This as already happened with male sports people breaking women's sporting records)

If Elliot Page (formerly Ellen Page) went to the moon would Elliot be the first woman on the moon or just another man on the moon now she identifies as a "He".

This is gas lighting everyone and lying and total dysfunction as an alleged cure for a mental health disorder that we are now being told is not a mental health disorder despite the need for surgeries and life long medication.

I have just read that the author Louisa May Alcott, famous for writing, 'Little Women' and 'Jo's Boys' was probably non binary and wished to be male. It is likely that people with some kind of dysphoria have existed in all times in history and various cultures. It is simply expressed differently and approached in varying ways.

In some cultures, like India and North America, there are gender neutral communities. These may comprise people who are born intersex or choose to live as the other gender than they were assigned to at birth. In Western society, gender dysphoria is probably approached differently because the medical technology is there to enable them to be more physically at ease witg their bodies, especially if social attitudes reflect intolerance of people's choice of gender identity.

"For several years, Money reported on Reimer's progress as the "John/Joan case", describing apparently successful female gender development and using this case to support the feasibility of sex reassignment and surgical reconstruction even in non-intersex cases. — Andrew4Handel

John Money invented Gender being separate from sex which does not even make sense.

And his botched and insane intervention to rear a boy as a girl failed.

But I have it cited as a success in one of my text books that we were using in in A' level psychology in England in the early 1990's.

We were using and early edition of "Richard D Gross psychology the science of mind and behaviour."

I have already cited the case of Karen White https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

So does society really believe these men are women? I don't for certain. Are we to everyone on behalf of sparing someone's feelings or subjective self assessment and desires.

An absurd situation would be is someone like Caitlyn Jenner went to the Moon would we call Caitlyn the first woman on the moon? Are we going to call a man "the first woman on the moon" or the first Female X and allow them to take credit for what is intended for women. (This as already happened with male sports people breaking women's sporting records)

If Elliot Page (formerly Ellen Page) went to the moon would Elliot be the first woman on the moon or just another man on the moon now she identifies as a "He". — Andrew4Handel

Nice example of transphobia. Interesting that you focus on a trip to the moon when the issue is entirely of terrestrial significance. The fact that Jenner and Page can now live happily should be our focus, not some weird bragging rights to an event - a prosperous distraction. And if a transgender person was first on the moon? We can manage that, A4H - humans have had to negotiate far more subtle matters over the centuries. And sure, there are tans people who are 'bad', just as there are straight people and gay people who are bad. People can do bad things, so? I remember 40 years ago people regularly smearing gay men with the allegation that they are pederasts. This still holds in some places I've traveled through where they say ignorant shit like God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

The fact that Jenner and Page can now live happily should be our focus — Tom Storm

And Not the facts of reality, biological reality or women's integrity and safety?

Not dangerous men being given easy access to vulnerable women's spaces.

Not the fact we cannot change sex?

Not the fact the men are taking awards designed to recognise biological females achievements and prize money aimed at biological women (Lia Thomas etc)

One persons happiness should not come as a result of others peoples disadvantage, and in this case forcing everyone else to lie. That is an appalling stance to take. Not humane at all.

Being the first women on the moon would a be a momentous achievement for women but we are now undermining these achievements to placate other people and also encouraging more people to believe they can escape the rules and boundaries of biology.

And Not the facts of reality, biological reality or women's integrity and safety? — Andrew4Handel

These are distractions and smears. If you are so obsessed with social justice, A4H, why not work at a homeless shelter or financially support a women's refuge?

Allowing men to identify legally and socially as women is objectively harmful. — Andrew4Handel

Nor do I doubt that those who can and will never accept transsexual conduct by biological males and females are sincere in their opinion. — Vera Mont

This is how the John Money and David Reimer case was Reported in the 1992 psychology text book I own as evidence that gender differences were caused by socialisation.

Psychology : the science of mind and behaviour
by Gross, Richard D, London, Hodder and Stoughton, 1992.

"A classic piece of evidence relevant to the issue was reported by Money in 1974. It involves a pair of monozygotic (identical) twins whose embryonic and fetal development were that of a normal male. An accident during circumcision (by cautery) caused one of the twins to lose his penis. Assuming that gender is primarily a social phenomenon, and that identity is learned, it was decided to raise the unfortunate "penectomized" boy as a girl.

This would seem to be a decisive way of choosing between the learning versus biological arguments, by letting rearing "compete" with biology, and it would have been a true test case had not as much as possible been done to "defeat" the male biological realities and to enhance female biological maturation.

At seventeen months, "he" was castrated, i.e. the androgen-secreting testes were removed, and was given oestrogen (female hormone): a vaginal canal was constructed at this time. Much earlier than this, the parents changed "his" clothes and hairstyle.

By the age of four, "he" preferred dresses to trousers, took pride in "his" long hair and was much neater and cleaner than his brother. "He" sat while urinating, in the usual female fashion and was modest about exposing "his" genitals (in contrast to the other twin, for whom an incident of public urination was described by the mother with amusement)."He" was encouraged to help the mother with the housework, while the brother "couldn't care less about it.
At five years. "he" had many tomboyish traits, but was encouraged to be less rough and tough than the other twin, and was generally quieter and more "ladylike", while the normal twin was physically protective of his "sister". At nine years, although "he" had been the dominant one since birth, "he" expressed this by being a "fussy little mother" to "his" brother. The brother continued to play the traditional protective, male role.
This seems to support the view that gender identity (and gender role) is learnt. The reversal of original sexual assignment is possible if it takes place early enough and is consistent in all respects, which includes the external genitalia conforming well enough to the new sex. However, the castration and use of oestrogen clearly, contributed to the ease of reassignment and probably also accounts for the normal twin being."

.....

Now both brothers have committed suicide. The parents admitted lying to researchers about progress, there was sexual abuse by Money
but this was long one of the most influential cases on gender issues.

In case you are interested I went to a let women speak event in my hometown Bristol UK and was one of the three men who spoke at the end. If you want to know what I look and sound like my contribution is from 1 hr and 43 minutes in.
We were heavily and nosily protested by activists at this event which you can't tell on most of the video but I can give more details about that and police inaction.
I was a bit overwrought myself.

This is how the John Money and David Reimer case was Reported — Andrew4Handel

Not sure this unusual case from almost 50 years ago is much relevant to the current discussion. We can all cherry pick examples of shit going wrong. Does the fact that the Challenger Space Shuttle blew up, killing 7 astronauts mean space exploration is wrong?

Not sure this unusual case from almost 50 years ago is much relevant to the current discussion. — Tom Storm

It is the building blocks of gender ideology and the belief that sex differences beyond reproduction are artificial.

Now both brothers have committed suicide. The parents admitted lying to researchers about progress, there was sexual abuse by Money
but this was long one of the most influential cases on gender issues. — Andrew4Handel

You presented an anecdote of a biological male raised as a female, and it seemed to indicate that transitioning at a very early age was enough for the child to accept all female social attributes, but then you indicated that the history provided by the parents was entirely false and the children were sexually abused by the researcher, which completely invalidates whatever results there were from this single example you provided.

My questions are why did you post this and what do you think it shows?

In some cultures, like India and North America, there are gender neutral communities. These may comprise people who are born intersex or choose to live as the other gender than they were assigned to at birth. In Western society, gender dysphoria is probably approached differently because the medical technology is there to enable them to be more physically at ease witg their bodies, especially if social attitudes reflect intolerance of people's choice of gender identity. — Jack Cummins

Then there's the example of Thailand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

Yes, the case of Reimer is an interesting case in pointing that gender goes beyond cultural issues. It was certainly a problem that intersex people were not given a say in their own choice of gender. However, it is questionable to use it to oppose trans identities.

It does seem that in the current cultural backlash many individuals think that they have a right to insist on their views as the ultimate one, often based on citing examples of online research. Having worked in mental health care, including working with trans identified individuals, it does seem that the voices of professionals and their patients are often pushed aside It is matter of politics rather than about the well being of those who turn to the medical profession for support. So many media sites seem to be platforms more for people to vent their opposition to people with gender identity issues and most trans people just wish to live their lives rather have to face transphobia daily.

It demonstrates nothing. Looks more like a desperate move to find anything that can be used as evidence against the proposition that transgender is just one legitimate expression of humanity.

We're stalemate then. I'm no expert on the matter, but I am comfortable with the notion that gender's a social construct and that biological sex is different. If people's psychological wellbeing is almost always enhanced by taking the transgender commitment, so be it. We ain't going to change this by being retrograde monomaniacs about the issue. It's here to stay and we need to understand how to live harmoniously with our fellow creatures and allow people the dignity of becoming who they need to be. No doubt there'll be lots to work though and many jagged edges.

:up:

Yes, Thailand is interesting and it does seem that there is increasing intolerance to those who question the binary. It may be partly that more people are wishing to express androgyny. On the other hand, I do wonder if so much opposition is about a gradual wish for more totalitarian powers and suppression of human freedom.

As I know that you are in England now, I am wondering if you are aware of the most controversial trans legal case of Kiera Bell. I would imagine that you have heard of it but as it is in England I will point it out for anyone who is not familiar with it. Basically, this is a young woman who is detransitioning, after taking puberty blockers and testosterone and having chest surgery as an adolescent. Kiera was living as Quincy and at age 21 regretted this treatment.

As a result, Kiera, as she is now known, sued the adolescent gender clinic. She argued that as a teenager she was not stable enough to have the capacity to consent. She won her case and it has far wide ranging effects. Of course, it does seem that her medical treatment happened so quickly and much of it is irreversible.

However, it has become a source of activism and it does seem that many, including Christian groups, have seized on it as a means of supporting gender fundamentalism and she has become a celebrity. There are even T-shirts with the slogan, 'Queen Kiera Bell'. It does seem to have become a culture war between those who are stressing gender rights and those who are wishing to assert fundamentalism. The aspect which I wonder is how will people navigate their own personal searches while the issue of transgender is seen as a political one rather appreciating the complexity of it as an aspect of personal identity and psychology.

Yes, Thailand is interesting and it does seem that there is increasing intolerance to those who question the binary. It may be partly that more people are wishing to express androgyny. On the other hand, I do wonder if so much opposition is about a gradual wish for more totalitarian powers and suppression of human freedom. — Jack Cummins

I don't know why people care about what other people do, like how someone can be so mad about men acting as women. I can understand why people may think it odd, but I don't understand anger at oddness.

My questions are why did you post this and what do you think it shows? — Hanover

It shows that gender ideology is based on untrue foundations it is not the only case by any means but it was the most influential original one that we were being taught in 1992. It is also of importance since John Money is responsible for the original separation of sex and gender.

The sciences are bedevilled by a replicability crisis particularly in the medical sciences and psychology/neuroscience. This means a lot of false information is in the public domain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

This case is an example of a thorough refutation of certain claims and problem with the ethics and sanity in this kind of research among other things. The pressure on participants in studies to lie is well documented. Those studies can be called into question but they came after research into prominent much cited case like Zimbardo's "Stanford Prison experiment"
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/13/17449118/stanford-prison-experiment-fraud-psychology-replication

"There’s even more evidence that the “guards” knew the results that Zimbardo wanted to produce, and were trained to meet his goals. "

"The replication crisis (also called the replicability crisis and the reproducibility crisis) is an ongoing methodological crisis in which the results of many scientific studies are difficult or impossible to reproduce. Because the reproducibility of empirical results is an essential part of the scientific method,[2] such failures undermine the credibility of theories building on them and potentially call into question substantial parts of scientific knowledge."

(...)like how someone can be so mad about men acting as women. — Hanover

They are impersonating women and having and encouraging other people to have unethical Frankenstein surgeries and undermining women rights so you are mischaracterising the issue.

Do you have a problem with black face and if so why?

Where has anyone on this thread claimed they have a problem with men dressing in women's clothes or acting unmanly.

Nevertheless are you also denying the fetishistic element of cross dressing, of men pleasuring themselves whilst dressed as women including in women's toilets (there is footage) and public spaces, which there is huge evidence for on the internet. Sexual pathologies and paraphilias are real. It is not just about people being squeamish about gender non conformity.
Saying gender nonconforming children are trans is about enforcing gender stereotypes and that is happening.

It does startle me how people seem to have so much of an issue with what other people do. It may be that 'oddness' in itself is the problem as it was always those who were outside the norm who came under critical attack and subject to moral panic, like the way people seized upon Aids to condemn the gay and bisexual community. In the past, the bearded ladies, dwarfs and those who looked different were cast into the role of circus freaks.

In some ways, there have been the romantic deviants, like the sexually ambiguous pop singers. But, there is still a strong shadow of hatred and many people who look and act outside of the norm are subject to forms of bullying and violence in many places in the world. Those who continue to wish to be allowed to express their issues with the deviant 'others' often overlook this aspect of the power dynamics at play. They do not seem to link this together in their analysis, because they don't wish to consider the issue of prejudice and the nature of projection.

As I know that you are in England now, I am wondering if you are aware of the most controversial trans legal case of Kiera Bell. — Jack Cummins

Yes I am familiar with the case.

And now the Tavistock clinic is being closed down which is a historical first and unprecedented move for complete closure of a failing service.

This behind a pay wall but:

"The Tavistock gender clinic is facing mass legal action from youngsters who claim they were rushed into taking life-altering puberty blockers.

Lawyers expect about 1,000 families to join a medical negligence lawsuit alleging vulnerable children have been misdiagnosed and placed on a damaging medical pathway."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-to-be-sued-by-1-000-families-lbsw6k8zd

The LGB Alliance is much Maligned charity trying to protect the rights and identity of gay and bisexual people. Mermaids a charity for "trans children" has tried to get the LGBA closedown but in the process exposed itself and is now being investigated by the charity commission for malpractice and child safety issues.

"LGB Alliance said 60 per cent of boys and 70 per cent of girls referred to Tavistock are gay or bisexual, while just 17 per cent of the population are not heterosexual.

And there has been a huge 4,400 per cent increase in the number of girls referred to the clinic, with triple the number of girls attending the clinic compared to boys."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11205739/Soon-close-NHS-Tavistock-clinic-accused-transing-gay-away-bitter-legal-dispute.html

"Paul Roberts, head of LGBT Consortium, said it was 'transphobic' to claim 'a person with a female body cannot be a gay man'."

it was always those who were outside the norm who came under critical attack and subject to moral panic — Jack Cummins

This is not a moral panic. Gay men have had their penises and testicles removed because they couldn't accept their homosexuality or thought being gender non conforming meant they were women.

Gender non conformity is being pathologized and labelled and not normalised.

and being treated by unethical surgeries with many complications.

It is nothing like the situation faced by gay people despite us being force paired with TQIA+

Being gay does not require surgeries, genital mutilation and hormones and life long medicalisation, undermine women's rights and spaces or make everyone lie about reality to appease someone else.

Why can't a person with a female body identify as a gay man? Some, such as Poppy Z Brite, a famous author who wrote, 'Lost Souls' has transitioned and is living as a gay man. There are many male to M to F individuals who identify as lesbian and F to Ms who identify as gay men. That is because gender identity and sexual preference are distinct from one another. Life is full of diversity.

You seem to be making the mythical assumption that people who change gender are just people who can't accept homosexuality. It is not that simple because it is not necessarily about the body one is attracted to but to how a person feels about one's own body prior to any sexual relationship with another, or independently of actual relationships at all.

Why can't a person with a female body identify as a gay man? — Jack Cummins

Because gay men are same sex attracted. As a gay man from a Christian cult background, gay men were pressurised to be heterosexual and to have sex with women one of my sisters tried to get me to date women. This is very traumatic for us. Gay men were given electric shocks whilst being shown homoerotic images. They were given sickness inducing drugs likewise and chemically castrated (with substances now used as puberty blockers.)
Now they are being called transphobic for not wanting to sleep with women who identify as gay men and accused of sexual apartheid.

A women cannot live as a gay man and a gay man having sex with a vagina is heterosexual sex. What is happening is women wanting to being gay men impersonating gay men and being surprised and hurt when being rejected by gay men.
It is a crying shame this is happening for both sides because it is giving people unrealistic expectations.