We need to think about how our notions of personal freedom and social progress are being shaped by our modern conceptions of identity and self, and how the proliferation of identities is leading to a lack of meaningful human progress.
Centrally problematic is that the behaviours of "free" individuals tend not to stray far from well-trodden paths, despite the proliferation of such paths, thereby an overall social/ideological stability that subsumes intra-cultural political conflict is maintained, while personal stability is rendered at best incidental. In fact, identity formation in modern “free” societies allows for and even encourages the creation of conflicting identities that war with themselves in a (self) destructive fashion. And there are practical reasons for but no overwhelming force towards the attainment and perpetuation of an identity that is consistent and encompassing enough to effectively abrogate such inner self conflict. In fact, such an orientation is often actively discouraged under ideologies of "self-exploration" etc. Fundamentally then, modern society facilitates the greater and greater separation of identity from self, or, more specifically, the proliferation of identities that do not tend to reconcile themselves in a stable self but form unstable selves that are defined largely by inner conflict. — Baden
I'll look into the logotherapy connection. Thanks. — Baden
Is lack of purpose something you were trying to address? — Shawn
The freedom of identity a technically advanced consumer society facilitates (identity commodified / personal paralysis packaged as endless novelty) contains within it the anaesthetic that neutralizes a more valuable freedom, the freedom of resistance against an orientation towards the self that dictates that a self must consume even the self and in as many flavours as possible in order to fully experience itself. — Baden
The subject is subjected to the social insofar as it cannot coherently arrange itself in opposition to it, or at least in opposition to its failings, because it has internalized conflicting psychological forces that prevent a coherent response. And a society that systematically protects its failings at the expense of its subjects is antithetical to the notion of meaningful human progress. — Baden
current ideologies of identity obscure their own function, which is to serve the social at the expense of the self). — Baden
The freedom of identity a technically advanced consumer society facilitates (identity commodified / personal paralysis packaged as endless novelty) contains within it the anaesthetic that neutralizes a more valuable freedom, the freedom of resistance against an orientation towards the self that dictates that a self must consume even the self and in as many flavours as possible in order to fully experience itself. — Baden
The proliferation of identities within a self equates to a proliferation of often conflicting purposes that can negate each other — Baden
The freedom of identity a technically advanced consumer society facilitates (identity commodified / personal paralysis packaged as endless novelty) contains within it the anaesthetic that neutralizes a more valuable freedom, the freedom of resistance against an orientation towards the self that dictates that a self must consume even the self and in as many flavours as possible in order to fully experience itself. — Baden
Certainly an individual living multiple roles is not necessarily doomed to internal conflicts. Cannot a famous skier be also an effective physicist, while also being an attentive father and husband? — jgill
This what you described can happen in any society. But Baden is talking about a consumer society
So unless he buys the latest ski equipment every season, spends half his money on Walmart shit, and consumes his children in Aspic sauce, he is not actually a good example of what Baden was saying — god must be atheist
Anyhow, is this a problem you recognize? Does the analysis make sense? What, if any, are potential solutions? — Baden
On the contrary, the proliferation of techniques of the self can be argued to produce a creative, adaptively flexible intricate structure of personal identity that is less vulnerable to becoming paralyzed by internal conflict than more traditional forms of identity. — Joshs
I think Habermas had the right idea, and was able to overcome the pessimism of other Frankfurt school thinkers, via his communicative rationality approach — Joshs
I'm not sure I recognize the problem. Do you think this experience of having several or multiple identities can also be experienced as coherent and perhaps more like a set of tools for a particular job? Or modalities of being which have a particular grammar relevant to a particular domain? And maybe some of us do experience a fracture or blunting of sorts, with an inability to reconcile these 'selves' and the societal expectations which shape them. Does that make sense? — Tom Storm
Sorry, that was a bit rude. I've been feeding various posts in to see what results, including my own, and found it uncanny. — Banno
This makes sense to me as how I am caught up in process and processes where the 'identify' I experience appears. I have no idea how to compare that with experiences of identity that seem to come forward on their own account.
I don't present that as an argument against some kind of completely 'objective' narrative but do feel something has been left out. — Paine
I am not kidding you — god must be atheist
It sounds like you're saying that social fragmentation ends up being reflected in individual psyches. — frank
That is one of the things I am definitely saying, yes. I think unenlightened said something similar in a recent thread that may partly be responsible for me thinking about this. — Baden
The important conditional here is "can negate". Is there a critical number of proliferations that must trigger this phenomenon? The statement is overly vague.
Certainly an individual living multiple roles is not necessarily doomed to internal conflicts. Cannot a famous skier be also an effective physicist, while also being an attentive father and husband?
Some people can be successful in multiple capacities, while some can barely handle one. Some, none. — jgill
Maybe. But I assure you: it's still more fun than praying on the call of the muezzin seven times a day and prostrating on a prayer mat and submitting your self, mind, and soul to the Islam.
And it's also more fun than not seeing woman for decades, and going every day out into snow desert at forty below, and chopping wood ten hours each day, only to crawl back into your bungalow called "Shtalag 9" and subsist on 800 calories each day as well-earned reward for your hard work, while some other people keep beating you severely for any small infraction and calling your mother names. — god must be atheist
This what you described can happen in any society. But Baden is talking about a consumer society. So unless he buys the latest ski equipment every season, spends half his money on Walmart shit, and consumes his children in Aspic sauce, he is not actually a good example of what Baden was saying. — god must be atheist
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