Of course he was.

Socrates was given the opportunity to suggest his own punishment and could probably have avoided death by recommending exile. Instead, the philosopher initially offered the sarcastic recommendation that he be rewarded for his actions.http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/socrates.htm

He was 70 years old, probably didn't fancy facing life as an exile, and by the scanty accounts, did fancy thumbing his nose at the establishment.
The question remains: Just what was he proving?

Why does it matter whether or not Socrates is a martyr? :chin:

The concept of martyr cannot be applied to Socrates because he was a philosopher not a Christian or Islamic who died in pursue of faith.
According to Cambridge dictionary, martyr is defined as: a person who suffers very much or is killed because of their religious or political beliefs, and is often admired because of it
mártir; a Christian/Islamic/religious martyr.

Socrates was a victim of an ignorant system. Quite the opposite of being a "martyr"

Socrates was a victim of an ignorant system. — javi2541997

:up:

I only wonder because he died for a cause...

What "cause"?

Of living the philosophical life as he did.

Philosophy as a way of life, with Socrates...

I don't think so, I think Nietzsche was right in that he was tired of life and killed himself by trolling Athenian elites. Sort of like when forum members can't get themselves to leave the forum, and go out in a frenzy of insults and behaviors that are in obvious breach of forum rules... a suicide by Mod type of thing.

...a person who suffers very much or is killed because of their religious or political beliefs, and is often admired because of it — javi2541997

So Hypatia of Alexandria, then.

I don't see how "philosophy as a way of life" was a persecuted "cause". Besides, Socretes chose death rather than exile: assuming Plato's account is factual, Socrates did not have to die when he did and the way he did.

:up:

I do not think he was a martyr for his beliefs as much he was a martyr for refusing to hold his tongue. He stood up to censorship, stood by his God-given right to speak, and proved he’d rather die than to submit.

The question remains: Just what was he proving? — Vera Mont

I would say that he was proving his philosophy by example. If he would have accepted exile he would have implicitly abandoned his philosophy.
He was showing that he lived his life to the extent that he did not fear death.

According to Cambridge dictionary, martyr is defined as: a person who suffers very much or is killed because of their religious or political beliefs, and is often admired because of it
mártir; a Christian/Islamic/religious martyr. — javi2541997

It does say "or political" as a kind of BTW, which would astonish a lot of freedom-fighters and revolutionary heroes. You can get killed for demanding free speech in China, or home rule in Ireland. And you can certainly get killed for saying there must be life on other planets. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/was-giordano-bruno-burned-at-the-stake-for-believing-in-exoplanets/ IOW - a martyr to science.

He was showing that he lived his life to the extent that he did not fear death. — TheMadMan

Yes, I got that part, but it doesn't amount to martyrdom. However, I think the defence of free speech does. This:

He stood up to censorship, stood by his God-given right to speak, and proved he’d rather die than to submit. — NOS4A2

... though I think he would have left God out of it.

It seems to me that Socrates did die for a cause... Yet, it would be hard to pin down Socrates as ideologically driven to do so, or am I wrong on this?

You are right, those have dead for social causes, but "martyr" is a word that is interpreted in a religious way.

For example: Martyrs (Shaheed) And Their Status In Islam. Ibn Taymiyah, may Allah have mercy on him, said: “These are the four degrees of Allah’s slaves: the best of them are the Prophets, then the Siddeeqs, then the martyrs, then the righteous.” [Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (2/223)]

Look, this is interesting: "The words of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) are that “the most dignified way to die is to be martyred" Martyrdom in Islam

Xenophon begins his Apology by saying: "But what they didn’t make clear—and without it his boastfulness is bound to appear ill-considered—is this: he had already concluded that for him death was preferable to life."

In typical Socratic fashion, this raises more questions than it answers. Why would he consider that death was for him preferable to life? We are reminded of the Socratic claim that the unexamined life is not worth living. But exile would not have prevented him from philosophizing. So why this conclusion?

Although he was 70 years old there is no indication of poor health or diminished capacity. In fact he had a young son. So neither the conjecture that he was too old to travel or too infirm to live holds up.

Socrates was confronted with the fundamental tension between philosophy and the city. He questioned the ancient traditions of the city. Such questioning is impious. Teaching the youth to question is corruptive.

At the root of such questioning is the question of whether something is good simply because it it part of the traditional foundations of the city. To consider this question is to philosophize. Doing so is to favor philosophy over the city. And yet, Socrates demonstrated his civil piety by complying with the judgment of the jury. He does not put himself or the pursuit of philosophy above the law.

In Plato's Apology Socrates points to the comic poet Aristophanes, who in his play the Clouds accuses Socrates of the things he will at a much later date be accused of at trial. He calls on Socrates and philosophy to be responsible for what they say. Plato's response is his own comic poetry, the Republic, a play in philosophy takes full responsibility through the philosopher/kings. In other words, philosophy and public life can only be reconciled in the unlikely event that philosophers rule. They are persuaded to rule because they owe something to the city, that is, they have a responsibility to the city.

Cicero said:

Socrates was the first to call philosophy down from the heavens and to place it in cities, and even to introduce it into homes and compel it to inquire about life and standards and goods and evils.

(Tusculan Disputations V 10–11)

Socrates was the first political philosopher. His concern was how we ought to live. And this includes how we ought to die. His was not the death of a martyr but the death of a philosopher.

It was left to the youth he "corrupted" to figure out how to bring into harmony the tension between philosophy and the city. As Nietzsche says:

THE REAL PHILOSOPHERS, HOWEVER, ARE COMMANDERS AND LAW-GIVERS; they say: "Thus SHALL it be!

(BGE,211)

I don't see how "philosophy as a way of life" was a persecuted "cause". — 180 Proof

Precisely. The Athenians were well-aware of and allowed, even encouraged, philosophy & philosophers (how else did it floruit and spread all over the globe?) - they were, if I recall correctly, well-respected citizens.

If I may be so bold as to conjecture - the first, Socrates is considered the Father of philosophy, usually becomes and actually is an alien to his/her own people (new ideas those days were looked upon with suspicion, out-group) and so what befell Socrates is not exactly surprising. It was not a matter of if but when he would be executed/exiled by Athens.

Of course him being not a martyr does nothing to diminish his signifcance to the world. He ranks among those rare folks who practice what they preach and I respect him for that despite the fact that he, like Aristotle, might've condoned, nay justified, slavery and all the other societal maladies of their time. We have the advantage of hindsight which they say, rightly so, is 20/20, as will our children and their children.


As sometimes you quote, 180 Proof,

I don't know how to do philosphy without being a disturber of the peace. — Baruch Spinoza

... though I think he would have left God out of it.

“ For if I tell you that to do as you say would be a disobedience to the God, and therefore that I cannot hold my tongue…”

I don't know if you are wrong, but I disagree as I don't see "philosophy as a way of life" as a persecuted cauae (i e. political ideology or religious faith).

As sometimes you quote, 180 Proof,

I don't know how to do philosphy without being a disturber of the peace.
— Baruch Spinoza — Agent Smith

:fire:

You are right, those have dead for social causes, but "martyr" is a word that is interpreted in a religious way. — javi2541997

By some people. Not me. Just because there are lots of examples from their writings, I'm not letting the clerics suborn yet another word for their exclusive use. And certainly not by the nations who raise up statues to their murdered heroes.

For if I tell you that to do as you say would be a disobedience to the God, and therefore that I cannot hold my tongue…” — NOS4A2

Who said this? I heard Socrates didn't write things down. Even if it's a direct oral quote "the god" - possibly Apollo - or even "the gods"; without citing an actual name, of which all Greek deities had at least one, doesn't have a capital.

I don't know if you are wrong, but I disagree as I don't see "philosophy as a way of life" as a persecuted cauae — 180 Proof

Well, certainly Socrates was condemned to death for examining the lives of others and himself.

Well, certainly Socrates was condemned to death for examining the lives of others and himself. — Shawn

Yes, especially the ruling elite, who were not above reproach, but didn't like to be reproached. They were afraid that, being popular with young men, he could foment dissent.

He accepted his punishment but did not accept that he was no longer a citizen. He performed the work of being a mid-wife for the birth of thoughts till his last breath. With that in mind, I think Plato was saying that there was no way to get rid of him. The purpose of Phaedo being, in part, something like Auden speaking of the death of W.B. Yeats:

The squares of his mind were empty,
Silence invaded the suburbs,
the current of his feeling failed: he became his admirers.

This is somewhat unsettling; but, definitionally Socrates was a martyr. He died for corrupting the youth in Athens, Greece, according to the charges that were leveled upon him.

Would you label Socrates as a martyr, and is that label deserved? — Shawn

You raise interesting questions about how we think of Socrates.
What we know of him comes mainly via Plato.
From what I remember, I think his earlier Dialogues are stories of the historical figure Socrates, then it seems he used him in a more fictional way.

Socrates constantly questioned the societal and political values; he was seen as a threat to the status quo. So much so that he was eventually put on trial for corrupting the youth and for impiety i.e. not worshipping the correct Gods.

As can be seen, there are umpteen variations on a theme. Different interpretations of the dialogues.
So, perhaps in that sense 'Socrates' was a martyr to Plato's cause. Which was what?

To firmly establish and maintain the importance of philosophy?
What kind of philosophy?

The kind that questions our beliefs, assumptions and considers different ways of thinking.
How was this shown to us?
From Plato, we read of Socrates and his debates with other characters...introducing 'Dangerous Ideas'.

How do we know if what we read is true?

The Socratic Dialogues are stories. Fiction. What do we take as 'truth'?
Is it true that:

Cicero said:

Socrates was the first to call philosophy down from the heavens and to place it in cities, and even to introduce it into homes and compel it to inquire about life and standards and goods and evils.
(Tusculan Disputations V 10–11)

Socrates was the first political philosopher. His concern was how we ought to live. And this includes how we ought to die. His was not the death of a martyr but the death of a philosopher.

It was left to the youth he "corrupted" to figure out how to bring into harmony the tension between philosophy and the city. As Nietzsche says:

THE REAL PHILOSOPHERS, HOWEVER, ARE COMMANDERS AND LAW-GIVERS; they say: "Thus SHALL it be!
(BGE,211) — Fooloso4

As such, it doesn't matter what label we attach to Socrates.
What matters is the effect of the stories on how we live; what we love and why we think the way we do.
It's about coming to know ourselves; learning how to do that...perhaps to find some kind of harmony between our passions and reason. Or to disturb the peace of our self-satisfied slumbers.

Reading the Dialogues as Fiction. Way to go, Plato :sparkle:

Reading the Dialogues as Fiction. — Amity

The Greek term is transliterated "poetry". The root of the word poiesis means to make. Here it is the making of images in words. It connotes both the image of the philosopher Socrates and the philosopher as an image maker.

In the Apology Socrates was accused of making new gods.

Lest we regard this as a quaint outmoded notion of philosophy, Wittgenstein said:

Philosophy ought really to be written only as a form of poetry. — Culture and Value, 24

Plato indicates that even then the issue of the relationship between philosophy and poetry was old;

...there is an old quarrel between philosophy and poetry — Republic 607b

Would you label Socrates as a martyr, and is that label deserved? — Shawn

Yes, I would describe Socrates as a martyr. As far as I understand the circumstances around his death, Socrates was condemned to death by the Aristocracy for poisoning the minds of the youth. Is this correct?

Why does it matter whether or not Socrates is a martyr? :chin: — 180 Proof

I think it matters in a historical context of how the progression of ideas started out in western philosophy. Maybe because he became a martyr, it popularized and solidified greek philosophy into history better than if he hadn't become a martyr.

:up:

The Greek term is transliterated "poetry". The root of the word poiesis means to make. Here it is the making of images in words. It connotes both the image of the philosopher Socrates and the philosopher as an image maker. [...] — Fooloso4

Thanks for this.
As usual, your thoughts and quotes spark even more questions and ideas.
I'm taking time out now for 4 weeks. Glad to see you picking up your pen, again :sparkle:
Almost a Pavlovian response to Plato?!