"By feeding data about Beethoven, his music, his style and the original scribbles on the 10th symphony into an algorithm, AI has created an entirely new piece of art." — Athena

That's from the article; I didn't say it. I heard the music, though: it was rather dull, with none of Beethoven's spirit. Of course, the computer only had fragments to go on.

Music is mathematical.

No, that's not enough for music.
But mathematics is enough to make sure every child has food, shelter, clothing, medicine and schoolbooks. More likely to happen if a benign computer is in charge of allocating resources than a random assortment of self-interested humans.

Having feelings for a child and figuring out how this child is special and the best way to help the child actualize him or herself is not mathematical.

Feelings are all very well; unfortunately, rage, hate, belligerence and greed are feelings too. 10,000 children die of malnutrition every day under human auspices, and the ones that die of neglect, incidental violence and as a result of war-related activities by humans are never even counted. Feelings have ruled for a long time, and don't do it very well.

I don't see the point you're making or how your post addresses my post from which you've quoted an excerpt (out of context).

And what of liberty? — Athena

The only goal or job a government needs to perform is the healthy maintenance of the population; to protect, to provide resources, and as much freedom as reasonably possible for every citizen (homeostasis). — punos

My main point really is that any government controlled by humans in power positions will always eventually slip into some despotic state. AI i believe may be the only way out of our own corruption, and self-destruction; people should not be able to govern other people, but they do need to be governed by something.

Probability of despotism (humans vs AI):
------------------------------------------------------
Humans in control = 100%
AI in control = 50%

Isn't unification the norm? NATO, Warsaw Pact, SAARC, G20, ASEAN, BRICS, BIMSTEC, OPEC, EU, The League of Nations, and UN its successor.

That's from the article; I didn't say it. I heard the music, though: it was rather dull, with none of Beethoven's spirit. Of course, the computer only had fragments to go on. — Vera Mont

Of course computers and not equal to humans and never will be.

More likely to happen if a benign computer is in charge of allocating resources than a random assortment of self-interested humans. — Vera Mont

That is a dreadful idea and I used Tocqueville's explanation of why it is a bad idea. What is the point of even living? Would you be good with your family suffering from malnutrition because global warming and war meant countries on the other side of the world needed more food and that meant everyone around the world would have barely enough to eat? How about a decision to end all meat production or no sugar because those products can lead to health problems, and raising meat is the least efficient way to feed people? What other decisions are you willing to give AI?

How about enforcing a law that only married people can have a child and only one child?

Feeding the world is not just a matter of how much we can produce and spread around the world, but also how much we reproduce. It is vital that we reduce populations to more sustainable levels. And how do we want AI to enforce its mandates?

My main point really is that any government controlled by humans in power positions will always eventually slip into some despotic state. AI i believe may be the only way out of our own corruption, and self-destruction; people should not be able to govern other people, but they do need to be governed by something. — punos

A democracy is rule by reason and making sure that happens is as simple as universal education for good citizenship in a democracy.

What do you think can give AI good judgment and how can it enforce its mandates?

A democracy is rule by reason and making sure that happens is as simple as universal education for good citizenship in a democracy. — Athena

democracy = late 15th century: from French démocratie, via late Latin from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos ‘the people’ + -kratia ‘power, rule’.

A democracy is rule by people, and ruling people will always be the problem, Plato describes the problem with democracy in 'The Republic'.

any government controlled by humans in power positions will always eventually slip into some despotic state — punos

I think that democracy as we know it is actually a preliminary development that foreshadows the full development and implementation of a global human hive-mind system. Social media and BMIs will be part of this final evolution of a hive-mind, where humanity can finally be as one, united and mature as a global species. People will be able to feel each others pain and suffering thus engendering a mutual compassion among all connected ("One for all and all for one"). Symbiotically Infuse the AI into this hive-mind and the old ways of governing with laws will be no more needed. This can be the ultimate form of democracy if we do it right or the ultimate form of tyranny if we do it wrong (50/50).

↪Athena I don't see the point you're making or how your post addresses my post from which you've quoted an excerpt (out of context). — 180 Proof

The point is, who or what, is responsible for your well-being and the well-being of those we share this planet with? What are the boundaries of responsibility?

Some good questions there. I will take them seriously.

What is the point of even living? — Athena

There is no 'point' to life. It just is. As long as an individual finds his or her life worth living - i.e. the good in it outweighs the bad in their own estimation, it has value to them.

Would you be good with your family suffering from malnutrition because global warming and war meant countries on the other side of the world needed more food and that meant everyone around the world would have barely enough to eat?

That's one reason I didn't create a family. Because I would not be "good with" more powerful nations taking from less powerful ones, or rich people taking from poor in an era of increasing scarcity and danger. The disparity of wealth and power was quite bad enough during the relatively prosperous 20th century, when some of the increasing wealth and welfare trickled down; in the past two decades, the gap has grown wider and the have-nots more numerous.

How about a decision to end all meat production or no sugar because those products can lead to health problems, and raising meat is the least efficient way to feed people?

That's an excellent idea! I have recommended it more than once. AI, in possession of all relevant facts, is likely to implement it, along with facilitating large scale, efficient cultured meat production and all the better-late-than-never urban food growing initiatives.

What other decisions are you willing to give AI?

I'm hoping it can figure out how to recycle all those lethal weapons we've amassed and their horrid waste-products.

How about enforcing a law that only married people can have a child and only one child? — Athena

Married people?? Why should AI bother with prissy morality issues? How about enforcing the UN Charter of Human Rights, so that girls and women can't be sold into slavery for their family's debt or coerced marriages, locked out of schools or refused control of their own reproductive functions? How about making nutrition, hygiene and sex education mandatory in all school curricula?

Feeding the world is not just a matter of how much we can produce and spread around the world, but also how much we reproduce. — Athena

And you think Conservative state governments are more aware of this than intelligent computers?
How about making family planning, birth control and women's rights a priority? You want to reduce the number of unwanted babies, and care for all the children that already exist --- and yet you still believe the existing systems of governance are the best means to that end?

And how do we want AI to enforce its mandates?

By controlling the resources. Seize all assets currently in numbered international bank accounts and cryptocurrency. It's the easiest start, since that "money" only exists in data banks. Then take control of all essential services - emphasis on renewable energy production - communications and shipping lines. If no man controls those, no man controls other men.

A democracy is rule by reason and making sure that happens is as simple as universal education for good citizenship in a democracy. — Athena

If it's that simple, why has it never yet happened in any of the nations ruled by humans?

The only goal or job a government needs to perform is the healthy maintenance of the population; to protect, to provide resources, and as much freedom as reasonably possible for every citizen (homeostasis). — punos

The point is, who or what, is responsible for your well-being and the well-being of those we share this planet with? What are the boundaries of responsibility? — Athena

That would be the global cybernetic AI-Human hybrid hive-mind. In other words everybody including the AI will be responsible for everyone's well-being. The main responsibility of the whole system is to keep a stable homeostatic state throughout the whole planet and or solar system, in much the same way an organism takes care of itself. At this point the whole Earth would be a cybernetic organism entity concerned for the well-being of all it's parts.

I think that democracy as we know it is actually a preliminary development that foreshadows the full development and implementation of a global human hive-mind system. Social media and BMIs will be part of this final evolution of a hive-mind, where humanity can finally be as one, united and mature as a global species. People will be able to feel each others pain and suffering thus engendering a mutual compassion among all connected ("One for all and all for one"). Symbiotically Infuse the AI into this hive-mind and the old ways of governing with laws will be no more needed. This can be the ultimate form of democracy if we do it right or the ultimate form of tyranny if we do it wrong (50/50). — punos

The are two ways to have social order, culture, or authority over the people. Do you agree or disagree with that?

How is a culture manifested? How is authority over the people manifested? Where does AI fit in?

If it's that simple, why has it never yet happened in any of the nations ruled by humans? — Vera Mont

It did happen and I don't know why people's attitudes are so bad and they are so willing to destroy everything we have gained. Never before could imagine feeding the world, or ending poverty. We have achieved so much and instead of feeling real good about what we have achieved, everyone here seems to be very negative about our human accomplishments. You all have active imaginations and I am very frightened by the belief that AI can do better and should do it with total control of our needs. I think you all would have voted for Hitler.

Long ago I decided I do not want to go to heaven. I enjoy being a human free to make my own choices and to be politically active to change the things I think need to be changed. I like the challenge of life and do not want to give that up for heaven. I do not think AI can do better than a god but it sure could make things a whole lot worse.

Social media has been used to divide us and to manipulate people and for all forms of evil and I don't think it is the answer for the future.

The are two ways to have social order, culture, or authority over the people. Do you agree or disagree with that? — Athena

I guess i agree if i had to put it in those terms (culture or authority), but both those terms imply some external force or influence imposed on an individual. If we can get rid of this "externality" of perceiving others as apart from us then new healthier more peaceful forms of social order would emerge not based on silly cultures and external force by arbitrary flawed power hungry psychopathic individuals.

The hive-mind takes care of this problem by taking the collective and transforming it into a "composite individual". If you and I were right now linked to each other in a hive-mind situation, then you would not be able to keep secrets from me and vice versa, you would not want to hurt me because you would feel it too and vice versa. You can call it a new type of culture if you like (hive-mind culture). This is a wholly different situation compared to what we have always been familiar with, which is why traditional governments and laws will become obsolete.

Do you need a law or rule, or someone to tell you not to cut off your left arm? No i don't think you do; The hive mind will feel the same way about itself.

I think you all would have voted for Hitler. — Athena

And I think you have just overstepped my personal demarcation of civil discourse.

We have achieved so much and instead of feeling real good about what we have achieved, everyone here seems to be very negative about our human accomplishments. You all have active imaginations and I am very frightened by the belief that AI can do better and should do it with total control of our needs. I think you all would have voted for Hitler. — Athena

I am very proud of what humans have done up to now, considering how flawed we are. My thing is that human civilization or history is a stepping stone to a much bigger thing that evolution has been working out through us for a few hundred-thousand years now. The culminating result of all human activity and knowledge throughout our entire history will be the development of a global AI system coupled with humanity in a hive-mind virtual environment. Our religions gave us the blueprints to build it, guided by our visions and images of gods and angels and saviors. Most people are unable to see outside the social and historical constructs we are embedded in to see what evolution is actually doing.

Hitler is just another person which is precisely why no more people in power if we can help it. Put Hitler in charge of any government system (even a democracy), and watch the atrocities roll. Put a benevolent leader in charge of the NAZIs and watch it flourish. It's not the system, it's the one who's in charge that makes the real difference.

It's more helpful if you just state your point clearly and not obscure it even more behind rhetorical questions. Thanks.

I guess i agree if i had to put it in those terms (culture or authority), but both those terms imply some external force or influence imposed on an individual. If we can get rid of this "externality" of perceiving others as apart from us then new healthier more peaceful forms of social order would emerge not based on silly cultures and external force by arbitrary flawed power hungry psychopathic individuals.

The hive-mind takes care of this problem by taking the collective and transforming it into a "composite individual". If you and I were right now linked to each other in a hive-mind situation, then you would not be able to keep secrets from me and vice versa, you would not want to hurt me because you would feel it too and vice versa. You can call it a new type of culture if you like (hive-mind culture). This is a wholly different situation compared to what we have always been familiar with, which is why traditional governments and laws will become obsolete.

Do you need a law or rule, or someone to tell you not to cut off your left arm? No i don't think you do; The hive mind will feel the same way about itself. — punos

I am so confused! Your first paragraph seems to favor extreme individualism and the second one seems to favor the extreme collective. :gasp: What is good about a hive mind? What you describe sounds absolutely terrible to me. You really think it is a good idea if others know everything we think? No privacy? What you are talking about sure is different from the Constitution the forefathers of the US designed. It is far from the Athena distinction between what is private and what is public. But Sparta the enemy of Athens would approve of no one having privacy and the collective having complete control. How do you justify that?

Do you think individuals should have no boundaries? It might be nice if we could fly but there could be problems with that. If we sit all day, we become weak, and we must exercise to maintain our bodies and minds. Nature puts boundaries on us and I am sure we also want boundaries in our relationships. Becoming virtuous requires as much work and a strong body requires exercise and achieving arete is what gives our lives joy.

↪Athena
It's more helpful if you just state your point clearly and not obscure it even more behind rhetorical questions. Thanks. — 180 Proof

If you do not want to think and answer my questions, why are you here?

And I think you have just overstepped my personal demarcation of civil discourse. — Vera Mont

I do not understand your reasoning. Hitler gave us a great gift. He showed us what can happen when some people have too much control and opposition to their control can be totally suppressed. How do you think, the AI people are talking about here, is different from that? I do not take this lightly. I am very serious and I want others to take their faith in AI and their apparent willingness of give control of our lives to a group of people or AI. AI must be programmed by people and their good intentions could be a terrible mistake. I want people to think about this.

I am seeing a willingness to give control to a ruling power and a complete lack of responsibility, just like the Germans who put Hitler in power.

I am seeing a willingness to give control to a ruling power and a complete lack of responsibility, just like the Germans who put Hitler in power. — Athena

You are seeing precisely what you want to see.
People are always putting some person in power, and the person in power always abuses it. You vaunt "our achievements" - which mainly consist of fighting at horrendous cost against persons "we" ourselves put into positions of power; overpopulating, depleting and despoiling a generous, hospitable planet and turning it into a vast hazardous waste dump.
All of which achievement has culminated in our capability to turn the long division problem of resource allocation over to a machine that can do math a whole lot better than we ever could.
But you think it's a better idea to struggle back to 1956, which was not a great year for me, personally, so I won't be joining you.

What is good about a hive mind? What you describe sounds absolutely terrible to me. You really think it is a good idea if others know everything we think? No privacy? What you are talking about sure is different from the Constitution the forefathers of the US designed. — Athena

There are no enemies inside a hive-mind, you are the hive-mind and the hive-mind is you. If it scares you to have your private thoughts shared among others who also share their thoughts and feelings with you then there is something wrong with you. You may not want to be an honest person, and you want to preserve your ability to take advantage of others (whether you know this or not). This is the primitive impulse of mankind that AI and the hive-mind will remedy. The individual ego is public enemy #1.

There is nothing wrong with the individual ego, it was good and necessary for what we had to do in history. Every individual is a collective (of atoms, cells, organs, etc) and every collective can be an individual (more or less depending on how integrated the parts are). A hive-mind would be the highest level of integration mankind can ever hope to achieve. I tend to put my own small and singular perspective aside for the bigger and more holistic view of things. It doesn't matter what i want, or if i like it, i am seeing a pattern and a trajectory and am simply reporting on it. It is futile to fight against the force of nature and evolution, it will always break you. It is better to flow with the river than to swim against it's current. Nature is the best and probably the only teacher, and this is why we should pay attention to how she does things and align ourselves with her ways.

The Constitutional fathers had no idea of the type of systems available to us now, they knew very little about many things that we know today. The entire global structure of society has already changed drastically through the introduction of mass media (radio, TV), the internet, social media, algorithms, etc.. The tools of the past are no longer effective or even appropriate. A new type of government yet unfamiliar to us will emerge out of this. The chaos in our world right now i think is a symptom of this reorientation and adjusting to these new and novel systems which will inevitably result in a new type of order in our Earth civilization (A New World Order).

It might be nice if we could fly but there could be problems with that. If we sit all day, we become weak, and we must exercise to maintain our bodies and minds. Nature puts boundaries on us and I am sure we also want boundaries in our relationships. — Athena

I don't imagine we will have the same type of bodies that we have today, it may be that we will not even have individual bodies. If a mind can be uploaded and downloaded then bodies will be like clothes or cars and just as dispensable. Even if we decided to keep our bodies more or less the way they are, any type of health issues will be easily remedied through a near perfect understanding of biology, medicine, and psychology.

If we do not change the nature of ourselves in accordance with evolutionary developments then we will go extinct. If we remain as we are, we will never be able to go very far from our home planet and eventually our home planet will be destroyed by it's own star. AI and all the cybernetic developments that have come to be are humanity's first class ticket to the universe at large. Our bodies and minds are too delicate, they (we) are still larval.

A potential step forward? Something to think about:

I'm here to give and take reasons and not just opinions. Why are you on a philisophy site merely opining?

I have been thinking about your post and it dawned on me that feeling other people's pain any more than I already do, would be hell for everyone. I would absolutely have to stop you from doing anything that may be harmful. You might not like that.

Have you raised children? Have you heard about overly protective parents? It is very hard on parents when a child's poor judgment leads to the child being hurt and some parents do everything they can to prevent that. A child between the ages of 14 to 30 does not want their parents interfering with what they want to do. What do you think about that?

There was a time when the Roman Catholic Church had a lot of power, and Protestants did not like what the Church was doing. The Church attempted to control what people thought about talked about, and it killed the first people who translated the Bible from Latin to people's native language. Protestants encouraged people to learn how to read so they could read the Bible for themselves. This was the beginning of people being their own authority and being our own authority on the word of God, which evolved into a democracy. Individuals having authority and equality. I do not believe AI can improve on that.

When we began to manifest democracy, we created a division of powers and a system to checks and to assure authority and power stays with individuals. However, back in the day, it was understood what education has to do with that, and that is not education for technology.

Please stay on topic and avoid making our communication personal. I am here to learn from the reasoning people post and share my reasoning with them so they make good choices for our nation.

Hey, you were evasively rhetorical and then, when I requested you cut to the chase, you made it "personal" with this response

If you do not want to think and answer my questions, why are you here? — Athena

Feel free to clearly state your point from here or ignore me.

We said our German enemy was a mechanical society and we defended our democracy from that in two world wars. Unfortunately after winning the wars, the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education for technology for industrial and military purposes. Now we are what we defended our democracy against. And there are people who want to make this even worse with AI even though humans are not machines and what is good for developing machines is not good for developing a social order for humans.

There are no enemies inside a hive-mind, you are the hive-mind and the hive-mind is you. If it scares you to have your private thoughts shared among others who also share their thoughts and feelings with you then there is something wrong with you. You may not want to be an honest person, and you want to preserve your ability to take advantage of others (whether you know this or not). This is the primitive impulse of mankind that AI and the hive-mind will remedy. The individual ego is public enemy #1. — punos

Are you a Christian or do you think your belief system is better than being a Christian? Both you and Christians hold a very low opinion of humans and both of you are needing a savior, instead of stepping up to the plate and being responsible instead of dependent.

learning of the virtues and making the effort to be virtuous will never be outdated. However, it can be made near impossible by keeping the people ignorant. Humans capable to discussing ethics can also be near impossible by keeping the people ignorant and dependent on a savior that is not real but can be made real by people who do not know any better.

Are you a Christian or do you think your belief system is better than being a Christian? Both you and Christians hold a very low opinion of humans and both of you are needing a savior, instead of stepping up to the plate and being responsible instead of dependent. — Athena

I am not a Christian, and i don't have a low opinion of humans, only that we have reached the limits of our physical and mental abilities to manage an increasingly more complex society like ours. Because of this if we do not produce autonomous systems that do the managing for us our civilization will collapse eventually. We are already helplessly dependent on the social systems we have now (without AI). Most people will die in short order if left by themselves in a jungle or forest, while animals would have no issue surviving or thriving. We are already well removed from the "natural order" as you and many others might say, but for me this is all a very natural development. The thing most people don't realize is that we are not in control and have never been, but that is an exceedingly difficult notion to get across to most people. We are not even truly in control of ourselves although we think we are.

learning of the virtues and making the effort to be virtuous will never be outdated. However, it can be made near impossible by keeping the people ignorant. Humans capable to discussing ethics can also be near impossible by keeping the people ignorant and dependent on a savior that is not real but can be made real by people who do not know any better. — Athena

There will be more virtue in a hive-mind that can even be possible outside a hive-mind. Who is virtuous? Who doesn't lie, cheat or steal in some way? Everybody does because everybody feels separate from everybody else. Ignorance will be an impossibility inside a hive-mind collective, where all information is instantly and equally available to everyone (no secrets). Instead of discussing ethics, we would feel ethics in relation to each other. I don't have to have an ethical discussion as to why i shouldn't poke my own eye out; in a hive mind your eyes are my eyes and my eyes are yours. We would feel this and not just know it.

The fact of the matter is that there is a limit to how long we can viably stay on the Earth and perhaps even this solar system. If we are to survive beyond this limit we will need to transform ourselves into a species that can actually leave this solar system; we can not do this in our current form.

I believe there will be essentially two types of people in relation to this AI hive-mind issue. Those that are for it and those that are against it (the biblical goats and sheep of Revelations). Christians will consider AI to be the Beast his image or the Antichrist, while others will consider it the only way to save ourselves. People will develop religious connotations about all of this, even the atheists. You should already know where i stand on that issue.

It is our job to create the vehicle of our own salvation and not wait for sky daddy to come and save us. This will be humanity's rite of passage out of the baby's crib and into the the universe as a mature and adult species.

I have been thinking about your post and it dawned on me that feeling other people's pain any more than I already do, would be hell for everyone. I would absolutely have to stop you from doing anything that may be harmful. You might not like that. — Athena

The point here is that you don't really feel other people's pain, you can only imagine it and then relate to it at that level. In a hive-mind the way you relate to others will be how you relate to yourself. You will not need to be convinced of things because you would just know. It will be a whole different level of being. Remember that in the hive thoughts and feelings are not confined to one individual, you will consider my emotions yours and yours mine. You would not really be able to tell which are my thoughts and which are yours, because they will be our thoughts and feelings. This dynamic results in you and i becoming one entity (as long as we are connected in the hive).

The levels of loneliness, and depression in the world now will only increase since humanity is yet to be fully integrated within itself. When the hive-mind becomes available, those people who have no friends, family, or any social support structure will flock to the hive. There they will finally find the type of human connection we all crave even we don't realize it now. When the rest of the world sees the power of being part of the hive then the second wave of people will come into it. Of course a few will not have it, and that's ok (nothing is ever absolute). Not all the apes evolved to be human just those that stepped into the new.

A child between the ages of 14 to 30 does not want their parents interfering with what they want to do. What do you think about that? — Athena

I agree under normal circumstances, but things would be different in a hive-mind.

Individuals having authority and equality. I do not believe AI can improve on that. — Athena

The main thing that AI will provide for us is a safe environment to be in, and the rest is mostly left to us in the hive mind with little or no interference from the AI.

When we began to manifest democracy, we created a division of powers and a system to checks and to assure authority and power stays with individuals. — Athena

Democracy as we know it is a pre-development of what will become the hive-mind. The hive is the perfection of democracy, and until democracy evolves into the hive-mind it will continue to fail because a system divided is not a good system (yet).