What I'm against is the reurgitation of Russian propaganda — ssu
Facts aren't propaganda.Russia is opposed to the US. It's going to promote any story that reflects negatively on the US.
If you're going to repress all Russian propaganda you're effectively denying all opposition to the US, since all negative actions of the US will undoubtedly figure in Russian propaganda. — Isaac
I think we a had already this discussion 11 months ago. And then (and now) nothing else is given, but the Nuland tapes and articles from that time as "proof" of this conspiracy theory of a "US coup". — ssu
. Joining the EU is unlikely to improve human rights in Ukraine based on the unequivocal evidence that it has not done so for any other country. — Isaac
But I see you have a new favourite metric. — Isaac
It seems power does indeed corrupt — Tzeentch
So on what possible ground is it right to give the most powerful nation on earth the benefit of the doubt here? — Isaac
If they did it, and we let them get away with it, then we've allowed power to dictate foreign governments to suit their needs. — Isaac
If they didn't, and we assume they did, we hurt the feelings of the people who actually brought about the revolution. — Isaac
I care comparing the likely trends concerning human rights institutions of ex-Soviet Republic between those which joined EU/NATO and those which didn't and remained under anti-West Russian influence. Why would I care about such comparison? For the obvious reason that Ukraine wants to join EU/NATO to escape from Russian sphere of influence. So it's relevant to understand what might happen to "human rights" institutions in the 2 cases. And since no trend in Russia/Belarus is close to reach any trend in ex-Soviet Republics that joined EU/NATO so far (EVEN WHEN IS DECLINING), my hypothesis is still very much plausible. — neomac
Those trends do not discriminate between driving factors (e.g. domestic vs foreign). — neomac
we take what we have when trying to better understand the attacker/imposer and defender — jorndoe
The U.S. has proven itself capable of doing many nefarious things. The worst of those can be related to accounts of how they were carried out by the people involved. Nothing like that has been presented as yet in regard to the unfolding of the revolution. My observations were given to underline how difficult such an operation would be under the circumstances. — Paine
If they did it, they will get away with it if nothing more than suspicion is presented as evidence. — Paine
I don't know what to make of this trivialization of Ukrainian experience right after you say: "we've allowed power to dictate foreign governments to suit their needs." — Paine
And what you just said means that it wasn't a US staged coup. And the post-coup government lasted for few months until the elections in the same year where the extreme-right lost."All I have" are US state officials confessing to funneling billions of USD to Ukraine, and being deeply involved in the construction of the post-coup government. — Tzeentch
Let's remember that the Revolution of Dignity started from a foreign trade policy issue, which inherently made the EU part of this.In what world would you ask "Is that all?" when this happens in a supposedly democratic country? — Tzeentch
And your view is largely irrelevant, as people understand that this war started from the annexation of Crimea and the separatism in the Donbas area in 2014.Whether you accept that the United States played a role in the coup is largely irrelevant, because this is more than enough proof of American meddling in Ukraine, which as many have argued is what sparked this conflict. — Tzeentch
And your view is largely irrelevant, as people understand that this war started from the annexation of Crimea and the separatism in the Donbas area in 2014. — ssu
Ah, so people like Mearsheimer, Chomsky, — Tzeentch
Yep. "always opposed to the previous war, never the current one". That way the war machine can just keep trundling on and everyone gets to pretend they're not supporters. — Isaac
It's often decades after the event that we find out the sort of details you're using the lack of to exculpate the US — Isaac
If there's even the slightest sign that the US are repeating the same abuses of power that we know for a fact they've done before, then it matters that we kick up a hue and cry about it. — Isaac
Hopefully make of it exactly what it said. Hurt feelings are less important that holding power to account. — Isaac
Right now they know can expect nothing but obsequious compliance from the likes of you so long as they don't slip up and release documentary evidence of the master plot in excruciating detail. — Isaac
I have actively protested against every war the U.S. has ventured upon since Vietnam. — Paine
I am not trying to "exculpate the US." I am trying to introduce the perspective that things happen outside of it. — Paine
Then you better get to work and find this sign. — Paine
this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals...Washington clearly has its own game-plan — https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957
the US is threatening to take the world to war. With eastern Europe and the Balkans now military outposts of Nato, the last "buffer state" bordering Russia – Ukraine – is being torn apart by fascist forces unleashed by the US and the EU
If the revolution was a staged event, and can be shown to be so, this will undermine the authority of Ukraine as an independent nation. — Paine
It is interesting to see how small you have made me. — Paine
But perhaps you are the type who either puts someone on a pedestal and agrees everything what they say and damns them others the lowest hell and avoids everything they say as the plague. At least that I'm getting from you... — ssu
With a significant number of heavy tanks from the West now heading for Ukraine, including the Leopard tanks from Germany. Things just escalated! Much bigger booms coming or Russian bust? — universeness
Why not try to engaging on the actual issues and not "this is true, because John Mersheimer said so and he's an expert". — ssu
your view is largely irrelevant — ssu
some seem to go with Putin's delusional propaganda — ssu
simple ignorance — ssu
fail to understand — ssu
reurgitation of Russian propaganda — ssu
totally forgets — ssu
Frankly I don't care. They certainly ought to stop committing war crimes, but that's not the same thing as giving up territory. — Isaac
The defenders evidently aren't and war crimes (so far mostly) the attackers/imposers. — jorndoe
The 'evidence' that the defenders aren't is little more than overt apologetics. — Isaac
But a 'who committed most war crimes' contest seems more than a little tasteless. — Isaac
If the revolution was a staged event, and can be shown to be so, this will undermine the authority of Ukraine as an independent nation.
— Paine
I don't see how. High quality elections have taken place since then. What it proves is the US's meddling in the region. It puts the lie to the idea that the US are only involved because of the Ukrainian people's sovereignty — Isaac
So you admit that you cannot possibly derive anything from them about Ukraine's likely trajectory by knowing only one such factor (sphere of influence). — “Isaac
So what improvements could you possibly anticipate, since electoral reform is petty much the only improvement that's consistent and even Russia achieved that with the break up of the USSR. I don't see any evidence of Ukraine's 'likely' path there.
What's more, at issue is not simply the question of whether Ukraine would be better off outside of Russian puppetry (undoubtedly yes). — “Isaac
It's whether a protracted land war is the best, or even acceptable means of achieving that, considering the enormous cost. — “Isaac
None of the countries you cite as examples have come out of long protracted land wars, nor have such significant far right nationalist sentiment, nor have such influential natural resource reserves, nor have Ukraine's position strategically for Russia... Nor a dozen other factors. The charts I selected show that there's nothing causal about entering a Western sphere of influence. Some countries improve (Lithuania, Estonia), others don't (Croatia, Saudi-Arabia, Iraq). so there's no reason at all to believe that it's the Western influence, and not internal factors that drive the changes. — “Isaac
you have neomac literally arguing that Western influence is so instrumental in improving a country's human right record that it's worth fighting a bloody war for, — Isaac
Besides, you keep talking about “enormous cost” without giving any moral criteria to understand the moral relevance of such “enormous cost”. For example: exactly how many Ukrainian casualties count as morally relevant “enormous cost”? If Ukrainian casualties were 0.000001% of the population would it be an “enormous cost” in moral terms? How about 0.00001%, or 0.0001%, or 0.001%, or 0.01%, or 0.1%? On what moral grounds you choose that number? — neomac
I would consider even a single person dying against their will to be an enormous cost that was unjustly imposed, on the moral ground that no person has the right to tell another to give their life against their will, under any circumstance. — Tzeentch
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