As Tom Storm pointed out, that'll be because of conservative christian attacks that prevent policy improvement.
I suppose fundamentalist christians have the advantage of not even pretending to rationality. — Banno
So... It seems you are acknowledging that it's primarily a political conflict rather than an intellectual one (?). — T Clark
You've done this philosophy thing longer than me but isn't that just an equivocation fallacy right there? It does nothing to address the point about the horrendous continued human rights abuses, bigotries and other crimes all around the world brought to us by specific religious responses. — Tom Storm
And if you're saying religion and atheism are equally dreadful then you still seem to be saying religion has nothing better to offer than no religion. — Tom Storm
And besides, I am yet to hear of a single case of an atheist war, one where everyone killed, blew up buildings and subjugated their enemies in the name of 'no god'. Political wars certainly. Even several that had atheism in the mix. — Tom Storm
But come at me again with a witty and scathing riposte — Tom Storm
The Church has always been another part of the status quo filled with a lot of power (more than I ever can imagined...) and tend to persuade people with their dogmas or religious doctrines. — javi2541997
I think up until the 19th century at least, you couldn't really separate the the state from the church. I'm not claiming that religious institutions were a force for peace — T Clark
only that religion generally is not what causes wars. — T Clark
In a historical perspective: the persecution of Jews and Muslims after the "reconquista" in Spain had religious causes. — javi2541997
One war I'm not sure about is the conquest of southern Europe by the Ottoman Empire. The Empire was certainly strongly religious, but I'm not sure if that was a major driver for the wars. — T Clark
A theist view at the minimal end is that God is a sensible proposition, and at the maximum end that God is the necessary foundation of all things.atheistic worldview
— T Clark
There's no such squared circle — 180 Proof
This is absurd. — T Clark
Yes, it's a battle of hearts and minds out there. I have met a number of Christians who said they came to the religion via CS Lewis' famous book, Mere Christianity. But I also met former Baptists and Catholics who credit Russell's famous work as a key reason they turned. No doubt arguments play a role. — Tom Storm
For example, part of the meaning of modern atheism are the unsustainable life-styles we associate with consumer-capitalism, life-styles that Baby Boomers in particular often justify on the basis of their metaphysical belief that "you only live once" . Atheism both drives, and is driven by, consumer capitalism, e.g. retailers preaching to us that we must live this 'one' life to the fullest. — sime
One of the oversights of common-sense atheists is that they reject the existence of the transcendental on the basis of a lack of evidence, and yet they tend not to consider the semantic possibility that the very meaning of transcendental concepts refers to the world. — sime
Atheism both drives, and is driven by, consumer capitalism, e.g. retailers preaching to us that we must live this 'one' life to the fullest. — sime
One of the oversights of common-sense atheists is that they reject the existence of the transcendental on the basis of a lack of evidence, and yet they tend not to consider the semantic possibility that the very meaning of transcendental concepts refers to the world. For isn't the psychology and behaviour of a Christian preacher fully accounted for by the physical causes of his behaviour? In which case, what so-called 'claims' asserted by the preacher should the atheist be sceptical about? — sime
unlike Ciceronianus's cutie pie faux surprise. — T Clark
Your OP is very coy. Oh...why would anyone object to the things that atheists say about religion. It ignores the fact that our culture, and this forum, are full of atheists who aggressively attack religious beliefs and show disrespect for religious institutions. They are not passive. They are self-righteous and bitter. Many clearly are reacting to bad experiences with religion in their youth.
Which is fine. Just don't act all surprised when religious people respond back. The atheist's attacks on religion are more than that. They are often also political attacks on traditional culture and spiritual values masquerading as rational argument. I am not a theist, but I am interested in atheism because I think it is generally a mean-spirited, irrational, and generally poorly argued sham. — T Clark
Just don't act all surprised when religious people respond back. — T Clark
:up:The claims of the "new atheists" (I haven't read them) seem directed more to religious institutions than to proving there is no God, but I may be wrong. Those I think are fair game — Ciceronianus
The discussion is to a large extent a proxy for ethical issues - the ubiquitous presumption of theists that it is they alone who engage with morals. Hence the need felt by Lewis and Chesterton and Newman. — Banno
Theism is significant because too many damn theists proselytize and/or inject magical thinking – superstitions – into their explanations or arguments, even in nonreligious contexts (e.g. politics, commerce, science, ethics). Mostly, atheism is an intrinsic threat to theism because it is always a live option for (thinking) theists like potential defectors from a blinkered, totalitarian regime. — 180 Proof
By “thought system” do you by chance mean science? Science is probably better described as a method.
— praxis
I wasn't thinking about science in particular. Ciceronianus said this:
Theism breeds all sorts of convictions, demands, wishes, conclusions, dreams, hopes, institutions, strictures and emotions (not to mention wars and other forms of violence).
— Ciceronianus
I think it's reasonable to apply something similar to the atheistic worldview. — T Clark
Theism is significant because too many damn theists proselytize and/or inject magical thinking – superstitions – into their explanations or arguments, even in nonreligious contexts (e.g. politics, commerce, science, ethics). Mostly, atheism is an intrinsic threat to theism because it is always a live option for (thinking) theists like potential defectors from a blinkered, totalitarian regime. — 180 Proof
Atheists don't form clubs because there is not much to discuss about atheism. "Are you an atheist, too?" "Yes, I am." "Me too." And that's where the conversation ends.
— god must be atheist
This is absurd. — T Clark
It could be that. But this is what it is. I put to you that you never attended a meeting of atheists. They don't talk about what they believe is non-existent. They talk about how others talk about and what they say about what the atheists think is non-existent.
I really don't know why you said "This is absurd." It was not. It was a plain fact. — god must be atheist
More and more I'm more attracted to the label apatheist. Postmodern Beatnik introduced me to the term and it took a minute but now I like it — Moliere
Australia is largely secular and most atheists I meet here have no interest in the arguments about god in either direction and have no internet in atheism as a thought system. They just take it for granted that god ideas are irrelevant — Tom Storm
...I'd like to address is the reasons for the intensity of what strikes me as a futile debate. — Ciceronianus
But if one goes around proclaiming there is no God, proselytizing as it were, I wonder why they bother to do so. — Ciceronianus
Of course. I think that the most significant difference is that the ‘religious system’ relies on absolute authority. — praxis
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