You cannot expect Western values to remain afloat when you tear apart the very institutions, ideas, and beliefs that they stand on. You can't have the West without God, it is as simple as that. — Gust
They also have as much integrity, interest in salvation, and are as attentive to the teaching of Jesus as everyone else. — Bitter Crank
I have had lots of interaction with conservative and liberal Catholics, mainline Protestants and evangelicals. Sincere and earnest believers are all pretty much alike, as are lukewarm believers, whatever their denominational membership. — Bitter Crank
My, such a glittering generality. What, actually, do you know about Lutherans and Methodists? — Bitter Crank
Firstly, that you're either Lutheran or Methodist, considering the bitterness of your tenor at present. — Heister Eggcart
but tu, Bitter Crankus? No, I like you. You seem like a good, upstanding gentleman. — Heister Eggcart
I'm far more of a cultural Christian than an ardent believer. Whether I even believe in it is unclear. I hang around a Lutheran church because it is near by (across the street) and it helps me maintain a little community with other people. I would prefer a bit more community, and would like to have more gays and oddball outliers among my circle,. But success in seeking oddballs and outliers in Lutheran churches is contraindicated. — Bitter Crank
a lot of religious people aren't particularly religious — Heister Eggcart
how many religions would even survive without a community component — Heister Eggcart
I'd go so far as to say a religion which doesn't foster community (people together) isn't worth having or saving — Bitter Crank
Sure, what does that have to do with me using the Catholic Church for the sake of this discussion though?There's a pretty big difference between not being Catholic and being Catholic, just as there's a huge gulf [teehee] between Sufism and some other sect of Islam. Pentecostalism doesn't save Christianity, just as radical Islamism doesn't save Islam. — Heister Eggcart
Well yeah, I don't think there's much comparison between strapping bombs to your chest and blowing yourself up, and fervently praying, reading, discussing the Bible.Islamist suicide bombers seem pretty "into their religion." But does that make what they say or believe in right? Or does it mean that they actually understand their "religion"? I don't think so. — Heister Eggcart
Okay thanks for sharing that.And for what it's worth, since you inquired, I don't think Protestants are any more pious, let's say, than their Catholic or Orthodox counterparts. Although it's true I've not been in contact or have surrounded myself with as many Catholics and Orthodox Christians, I can confirm from my own experience that the mumbling and hand flipping many evangelical Protestants do have no bearing on how they treat others. They're as rotten and sinful as everyone else, so there's definitely an outward, superficial aspect there that you had best not get lured in by. — Heister Eggcart
>:OMany of the minister's daughters I have met are simply strange, dunno about promiscuous...haven't tried them out >:) — Heister Eggcart
Sappy has a poster of Jeremy Corbyn on his bedroom wall for sure! :DBut we both know that Sappy sure does, ;) — Heister Eggcart
That's your opinion, but I'd argue that you are absolutely wrong. The desire for the transcendent (including God) is a natural human desire, which existed from the very beginning of mankind. So babies aren't born atheists, they're born with a desire for God from the very beginning.Atheists don't need to reproduce! All babies are atheists ;) — VagabondSpectre
Parents don't need to be indoctrinated at all. My parents most certainly didn't "indoctrinate" me in my religious views. I learned myself, through self-education.And the ability of parents to adequately indoctrinate them seems to be on a down slope. — VagabondSpectre
God BLESS the unending hordes of self-absorbed hipsters and social media addicts - without them, religion could most definitely not win. But their weakness, sloth, laziness and complete lack of virtue is a gift. These people will change with the winds, they pose no resistance at all. So let's see - on the one side, we have the fervently religious, who are determined to save their societies, and on the other you have punk-ass kids who like to have lots of sex and play video games and don't give a fuck about their world. Whose going to win, you tell me?If we actually look at the young population, we see many religious "revolutionaries", but we also see unending hordes of self-absorbed hipsters and social media addicts. — VagabondSpectre
It's not going to go away, it's going to reduce. People will understand where nihilism and atheism lead to, namely complete social disintegration, which is, by the way, exactly what we're witnessing in the West right now. The rise of rampant hedonism, an ideology that takes life as something to be enjoyed, rising divorce rates (50%+), broken families, the dissolution of hope (and I'm not talking about some puny ass "better technology" or "better economic conditions" hope that liberals always trump about - that's fake hope as far as I'm concerned), the promotion of vices by the media and Hollywood, etc.What makes you think that watered down religion is going to go away? — VagabondSpectre
The rise of religious movements combined with a complete renunciation of PC and neo-liberal dogma that permits such unnatural trends to exist in the first place. The election of Donald Trump, and BREXIT, are just the beginnings.What's going to change that will reverse these trends in the west and possibly globally as we slowly but surely globalize? — VagabondSpectre
Right, I don't see how development is antithetical to religious values. Religious values, on the contrary, have given birth to all that development we've witnessed in the West. It's only in recent history, once those values were abandoned, that the West started to collapse, which is where we stand today in history.Secularization seems to occur as a developing society realizes that it needs improved standards (such as reason and fact based justice) to confront the novel challenges that growth and success produce. — VagabondSpectre
No, actually I don't. We'll be more prosperous than ever, and it will be a true golden age, when religion and morality finally return in full force in Western society - it will be a new Renaissance.Augustino alludes to some future point where our wealth and prosperity go away — VagabondSpectre
Right. When Job had everything taken away from him, had diseases cast on him, and saw his whole world collapsing, he could keep his soul and faith in God together. And yet, these weaklings today can't even keep their body and soul together in much less pressing circumstances because of the concentration of wealth and power. Give me a break.Concentration of wealth has resulted in a concentration of power, and in both cases, most individuals lack both wealth and power -- sometimes having too little to keep body and soul together. — Bitter Crank
So let's see - on the one side, we have the fervently religious, who are determined to save their societies, and on the other you have punk-ass kids who like to have lots of sex and play video games and don't give a fuck about their world — Agustino
I know many "fervent atheists" who are "determined to save their societies". I don't agree with them, but I respect their fervor, and find it lacking in more of (but not all of) my Christian friends. — Noble Dust
In fact, you probably don't find a lot of genuine believers, period, because following Jesus or Buddha is hard. — Bitter Crank
Sure, what does that have to do with me using the Catholic Church for the sake of this discussion though? — Agustino
You know what I've found in many Christians? Fear. Fear that somehow this world doesn't belong to them, and they must adjust to that fact. Reticence. They're not willing to take action - they're not willing to fight for their beliefs. The atheists act as if they are right, and anyone in their right mind should follow them. Christians should adopt the same attitude and fight back, otherwise they can't win. So yes, the fact that fervor is lacking in your Christian friends is a problem. Fire them up. Get them to believe.but I respect their fervor, and find it lacking in more of (but not all of) my Christian friends. — Noble Dust
Good, now you're finally saying something. What should be done then?If the discussion is about saving Christianity, getting a bunch of evangelical Protestants mucking about doesn't save Christianity or the Catholic Church. — Heister Eggcart
No, something moral and realistic please. I expected you to have an opinion if you're so into criticising what you see.Kill the infidels. — Heister Eggcart
But if you look at the a better indicator for well-being, GDP per capita, you'll see that the US and UK and other Western countries have been growing far more as a percentage of world gdp/capita compared to the poor countries. — Agustino
One of the variables which has changed in the last 10 years is the percentage of wealth a small number of people control. "Eight men own the same wealth as the 3.6 billion people who make up the poorest half of humanity, according to a new report published by Oxfam today to mark the annual meeting of political and business leaders in Davos." If you take the richest 2000 people, there isn't much left. — Bitter Crank
Sigh, I really do tire of seeing this argumentative approach, here and elsewhere. If you or anyone wants to critique Mohammad, compare him to Jesus. If you want to analyze immorality in Catholic priests, compare it to Muslim Imams. But, this would rubbish your position, so I'm sure you won't do that, which is why you've proclaimed not to have an opinion on a psychopathic, child molesting desert warlord in Muhammad, but will readily scream about pedophilic priests, giving your opinion on them when no one desired it. — Heister Eggcart
My personal opinion is that economics has done much more damage to the family, religion, and other important institutions than any philosophical strand could have. Concentration of wealth has resulted in a concentration of power, and in both cases, most individuals lack both wealth and power -- sometimes having too little to keep body and soul together. — Bitter Crank
That's not true, I'm full on aggressive! But yes, I'm bored, bored of worthless and off the point critiques like yours, not designed with any productive purpose in mind but the satisfaction of a disgruntled and pretentious jerk. Apathetic because of so much uncodemned foolishness in the world that goes on to reproduce ad infinitum.I think the religion Mongrel is referring to will look a lot like Noblosh's avatar. Apathetic, bored, passive aggressive, and claiming to have read "that fucking book" even though the drool has soiled the ink. — Heister Eggcart
And why would Christianity permit it? Christian or Islamic theocracy, I can't care less for the difference.Because Islam will not permit this forum! — Thinker
That's your opinion, but I'd argue that you are absolutely wrong. The desire for the transcendent (including God) is a natural human desire, which existed from the very beginning of mankind. So babies aren't born atheists, they're born with a desire for God from the very beginning. — Agustino
No, something moral and realistic please. I expected you to have an opinion if you're so into criticising what you see. — Agustino
You know what I've found in many Christians? Fear. Fear that somehow this world doesn't belong to them, — Agustino
Sigh? That's a cogent argument? Furthermore, I disagree. The behavior of priests is much more a measure of the health and value of a religion than what happened more than a thousand years ago. — T Clark
Beyond that, you are being disingenuous. Muhammad is your straw man. If you thought Islam was a religion that shared values and dogma with yours, you wouldn't have brought up Mohammad's behavior. You only bring it up for rhetorical purposes - to try to convince people when your other arguments can't. — T Clark
It doesn't matter what Mohammad did 14 centuries ago. It matters what Islam does now. — T Clark
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