There is a break in the evolutionary balance between instinct, environment, and learning. his creates a situation whereby the human is in a sort of error loop of reasons and motivation rather than instinct. — schopenhauer1
Very interesting - and I think, true. But incomplete, because no intelligent animals lives entirely by instinct: they also think and learn and decide. Having undertaken a course of action, they sometimes either to fail to carry it through or abandon it for various reasons. Instinct, emotion, reason; need, reaction, strategy.
I don't have a developed thesis; I just got here. Definitely an interesting subject for thought. — Vera Mont
Humans are an existential animal. That is to say, why we start any endeavor or project (or choose to continue with it or end it) is shaped continually by a deliberative act to do so. — schopenhauer1
We generate things that might excite us. Or we generate things we feel we "must do" (even though there is never a must, only an anxiety of not doing based on various perceived fears). — schopenhauer1
So I did predict that answers were going to focus on the idea that animals too have some sort of deliberation, and that may be true, but can you think of how this is different than human deliberation? — schopenhauer1
I am specifically thinking of reasons as motivations, not just intention in general. — schopenhauer1
An animal might desire food, and they might even plan to some extent. — schopenhauer1
This is a constant theme and I am going to continue it as I see it of utmost importance to the human animal. Humans are an existential animal. That is to say, why we start any endeavor or project (or choose to continue with it or end it) is shaped continually by a deliberative act to do so. — schopenhauer1
Humans are an existential animal. That is to say, why we start any endeavor or project (or choose to continue with it or end it) is shaped continually by a deliberative act to do so. We generate things that might excite us. Or we generate things we feel we "must do" (even though there is never a must, only an anxiety of not doing based on various perceived fears). — schopenhauer1
the human is in a sort of error loop of reasons and motivation rather than instinct. — schopenhauer1
What do you make of habit? — Moliere
where we are being deliberate we are actually unconscious of what it is that is informing our choices. We can be deliberate and clueless simultaneously. — Tom Storm
I think this is nice line and it resonates with me. — Tom Storm
it is shaped continually by a deliberative act to do so — schopenhauer1
You "wake up" and get out of bed. You decide to go to the bathroom. Perhaps this is habit/routine, though. It is just something you do because you have done it. — schopenhauer1
You broke the routine. You recognized it and did something else. — schopenhauer1
You brush your teeth out of habit/routine — schopenhauer1
when someone calls your name from the bedroom. You instantly lookback — schopenhauer1
But of course, you can do anything you want. — schopenhauer1
In fact there seems to be almost no decision to be made, one is doing it). — schopenhauer1
I used to wonder about the meaning of "instinct" - as in when people say, or experts say, "animals act on instinct, humans on reason". I thought, humans have instincts too. Don't we act on instinct, too?I am specifically thinking of reasons as motivations, not just intention in general. An animal might desire food, and they might even plan to some extent. But there is still something altogether different regarding this and what a language-bearing being such as a human does. It is this implication of this unique ability that I want to explore. — schopenhauer1
If by "existential" you mean reality-denying, I agree with you.Humans are an existential animal. — schopenhauer1
There is something more I am trying to say, — schopenhauer1
That is to say, why we start any endeavor or project (or choose to continue with it or end it) is shaped continually by a deliberative act to do so — schopenhauer1
No, it's something you do because otherwise you'd soil your nightclothes. Bodies have imperatives that cannot be denied. — Vera Mont
And because neglecting oral hygiene is both painful and expensive in the long run. — Vera Mont
Someone? Who's likely to call from the direction of your bedroom? Someone who matters to you. Of course you respond; it may be important. — Vera Mont
People do have routines and habits, yes. Those routines were developed because they worked for that person. When they stop working, we change them. Addiction and external constraint may be factors, so that our autonomous choices are limited. And if we only have to make seven decisions in a hour instead of 49. So what? — Vera Mont
I used to wonder about the meaning of "instinct" - as in when people say, or experts say, "animals act on instinct, humans on reason". I thought, humans have instincts too. Don't we act on instinct, too? — L'éléphant
Well, maybe, sort of, sometimes, or not. — BC
So my point was the extra burden of the extra effort for motivation. — schopenhauer1
We provide narratives and reasons to ourselves for why we start, continue, or finish a project or task. — schopenhauer1
We may have a tendency to do things, but at all times, we are judging based on standards, values, ideas of what we think is good or preferable. — schopenhauer1
Often we default to routine as a justification, — schopenhauer1
Every time I bring this idea up, it is like there is a bug in this forum where no member quite understands what I am getting at but wants to debate animal cognition, — schopenhauer1
losing site of the focus, and throwing up red herrings or getting lost in non-essential tangents rather than productive dialogue on our existential situation.
Huh? Extra beyond what basic standard of burden? — Vera Mont
We're a narrating species. Our entire memory-bank is an archive of stories we told ourselves about ourselves and what we saw, heard, felt and thought about. — Vera Mont
Yes. And? — Vera Mont
No, we don't. We don't justify our routine actions, and don't feel any compulsion to justify them. Only when we decided to do something unexpected, contrary to routine, or counterproductive, do we feel any need for justification, and the one we give may not be the real reason. — Vera Mont
You brought up other animals, made a comparison. — Vera Mont
I have been trying to discern a focus, and failing. You think "an existential animal" has some kind of burden by thinking about itself. I don't get why this needs discussing. — Vera Mont
This is bullshit because you smuggled in the value of "counterproductive" — schopenhauer1
That's quite possible, and it's also possible that we can never agree on what we should be doing, just as you must have meant something by "productive dialogue" that I did not understand .there is no objective "productive" that means "this is what I should be doing" — schopenhauer1
You are making a narrative a statement of obvious truth, which it isn't. — schopenhauer1
Right, you aren't getting it. — schopenhauer1
I assumed all this time that other people also think these actions have obvious reasons that do not require explanation. — Vera Mont
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.