Alleged Buddhism expert — Darkneos

Yes, I was being ironic.

But that quote from the Tao Te is more about just letting things happen rather than fight them, which is supported by psychological research. Resisting a negative thought or idea, etc, ends up building a stronger association to it, rather than just letting it come and go. So actively trying to force something out of your mind does the opposite — Darkneos

Yes.

This, or something like it, I know from experience. There are different methods - solitary contemplation works for me; for someone I know who suffers from depression, it's analyzing dreams, or it might be writing poetry or keeping a journal. Basically, the process boils down to: See it, name it, accept it, own it. Then it can't own you. — Vera Mont

Yes, although it's easier to say it than to do it, at least for me.

Something like a social environment? Or a set of beliefs? Or what? — Moliere

I'm thinking roughly along Buddhist lines, that everything is an illusion born of our conditioning and playing out in endless repeat until we realize our true nature (emptiness) and somehow extinguish our conditioning. I'm not too hot on the extinguishing part personally. Free and extinguished is hard to imagine and unappealing to my sense of selfhood.

Yeah, I saw that one too. — unenlightened

:sweat:

I suppose that's the point I take issue with, then.

Though, if we're just taking that definition as the rule -- then your conclusion does follow. You and everyone else is disingenuous, as they are, in fact, influenced by the things around them.

Only God could claim to be authentic under such a criteria, though. — Moliere

And that's the problem.

Ahh, OK. Gotcha. And it looks like that's more where the OP was headed, too, so that makes sense.

Interesting that you'd call it a problem. Why is it a problem?

Well if nothing we feel is genuine then why bother living?

Hell, even if everything we feel happens to be genuine -- in the case of our set definition at this point, God -- why bother living? Everything can be exactly as you want it to be. How dull.

that doesn't make any sense.

I'm saying if nothing we feel is truly genuine then what's the point of living? Your life is essentially a lie.

I'm saying if nothing we feel is truly genuine then what's the point of living? Your life is essentially a lie. — Darkneos

Right!

So suppose that my life is a lie, and it's a comfortable lie. Might it be possible for a person to say "the point of living is comfort" rather than "the point of living is to be truly genuine"?

And, even if we are truly genuine, one could also demand some other condition to satisfy "the point of living" like "life should also be exciting" -- we could be genuinely bored for all eternity, and feel like living life is pointless just because of this.

Which should highlight how the question "What is the point of living?" is open-ended, and the answer is dependent more upon the speaker asking the question than anything else.

Which, in this case, would be you.

For me, I don't mind living a comfortable lie, in the sense that you've outlined what is genuine. I don't need to be genuine in the sense of not-influenced. Even further, the way I look at the world, to be not-influenced would be disingenuous, because we are connected to a world, we are connected to people, and we should listen to them. We are only an island when we choose to be, and then there's no one else around anyways. Genuine, and entirely alone.

Sounds awful to me. Why would I care about that?

Well if nothing we feel is genuine then why bother living? — Darkneos

This is one of those cute tail-eating propositions, isn't it?
If nothing we feel is genuine, the bother of living isn't genuine, since we're not genuinely living.
So, where did all this illusion, conditioning, control and influence come from? And on whom is it working, if "we" are not genuine persons?

'Do we genuinely feel things?' Awesome question!

I have recently wrestled with that specific question. For an unknown reason, I find I do not linger on a particular feeling very long. As someone who strives to be open-minded, I have asked myself why I am that way, whether is it good or bad, and whether I should change. I strive to look at situations from all possible angles. Of course, I cannot look at it from an angle I cannot perceive, but I strive to be 'open to ideas'. I know for a fact I am a product of my upbringing, but as I have grown older, I have challenged things I was taught as a child. Some things I have found I agree with, and some others I disagree with.

One thing I believe emphatically is I, my soul, the 'me without the body', will live on forever. Yes, I read that idea in the Bible, but I believe that to be true and I have discovered more evidence recently to solidify that belief.

Another thing about me is I find I am very literal. I get jokes and share them, but if a teacher who has shown to have wisdom, says something, I take them at their word. For example, Jesus said, 'fear not', so I strive to not be afraid. I have played out 'not being afraid' and what I would gain from not being afraid, and I've played out 'being afraid' and what I gain from that. I found 'not being afraid' has many more benefits than 'being afraid', so it makes sense to me to strive to 'not to be afraid'.
More recently, I wrestled with the idea of someone else 'wasting my time'. As I wrestled with it, I realized my time is mine to use how I want to use it. It's only a question of how I use it. I could sit and be angry at the driver in front of me while stuck in traffic or I could meditate. I could dwell on me 'not getting to somewhere on time' or call someone or pray for someone. The bottom line is it is MY choice. Later on, I came to the realization that the incidents that happen around us are not as important as the relationships we cultivate during those incidents. Why do I believe that? Well, over the years I have come to believe life is not about me. So, if it's not about me, how 'I' feel becomes less important than how others feel. No, it's not 'less important'... It's more like how 'I' feel is instinctual, but short-term planning, whereas thinking of others is NOT instinctual and long-term planning. You see, if everyone put others first, if people genuinely loved others as they love themselves, the world would be an excellent place to live! On the other hand, if everyone hated everyone else, eventually we'd all kill each other.
I believe there.

The way I see it, there are two equal laws that exist in the universe that are non-negotiable. There are two because one cannot obey one without obeying the other. Those two laws are to love God and love others. In this case, love is an action. It is not just a feeling. Therefore, one must seek to learn what love actions look like. Many examples can be found in the life of Jesus. I would argue, a person cannot obey these two laws completely unless God's Spirit is in that person. The Bible seems to indicate that the process of having God's Spirit enter you is simple: To believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead.

The point of these two equally important laws is these laws perpetuate life. Not following them, might not bring death, but it doesn't perpetuate life. Of course, hating, which seems to be an emotion, can only bring destruction. Following these laws also allows one to find an answer to 'What is the point of living?' The answer is, 'For others'.

As a result of all this thinking, I have found myself shying away from all feelings. So are feelings important? Feelings can move us to desire to take an action. Of course, those actions should be evaluated BEFORE actually being taken to see if those actions will genuinely be showing love towards other persons.

The beauty of seeking to do actions that live out love towards others is those actions will be different in different situations. I recommend seeking Wisdom for what to do in each situation.

I also do believe our perception is our reality, so while many things do happen out of cause and effect, how we interpret them (being good or bad) is up to us. Perhaps we if strived to learn from situations rather than classify them as 'good' or 'bad' we would be better off.

This leads to a riddle I came up with: Every person has a most important moment in their existence. When is it? Now! As in 'The NOW'. We will forever be there, but how many of us live there? The present is a present to be present in. If we looked at situations of learning or loving others, very few situations will be truly 'bad' or 'good'. They will be moments, or opportunities, to live life (in this body or another) with others, and for others.

So 'Do we genuinely feel things?' I don't know, perhaps not. But when I think of what I am feeling, recently I have found myself asking 'Whatever I am feeling right now, how can this feeling help me love another?'

If you don't have anything intelligent to say please don't bother commenting. I stopped taking it seriously once Jesus and God factored into it.

You obviously don't get it.

This is one of those cute tail-eating propositions, isn't it?
If nothing we feel is genuine, the bother of living isn't genuine, since we're not genuinely living.
So, where did all this illusion, conditioning, control and influence come from? And on whom is it working, if "we" are not genuine persons? — Vera Mont

That's not really answering the question of what's the point in going on if nothing you feel is genuine.

.

Sorry about @Darkneos. You'll find that there is a lot of hostility to religion here on the forum.

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry it couldn't have been with a more gracious poster.

That's not really answering the question of what's the point in going on if nothing you feel is genuine. — Darkneos

No, it's not. It's asking the questions: Where do feelings originate? What do genuine ones feel like? How do they become non-genuine?

I stopped taking it seriously once Jesus and God factored into it. — Darkneos

Why should anyone take it seriously when you cite an alleged Buddhist as source, and refuse to answer any questions?

What specifically do you have against God and Jesus? I believe in Santa Clause, but someone then showed me that the gift givers were my parents all along. I doubted their story, but tested it and found it to be true, so I changed my belief and moved on.

About the 'question', does it matter if it is 'genuine'? What if you never find out if it is 'genuine' or not? The point is that your life is still real to you, isn't it? If all you desire is self-preservation, then 'survival' is your point of living. That's all there needs to be. Only someone who starts considering that there could be something more will EVER consider the thought 'what is the point of going on...?' Having that thought implies that one is already thinking beyond mere survival mode. Wondering 'what the point of going on' also indicates that you believe there IS more than just surviving. So what is that 'more'? The next question should be 'Am I really interested in discovering more truth or am I just curious so I can brag about knowing something others don't?' (which is kind of like knowing who will win a sports game and bragging and then 'proving to be right for the sake of being right'.)

I think the movie 'The Matrix' does a perfect job of illustrating most humans. There are only a few people who really want to know the truth and take the steps to seek it out. In real life, I believe most people don't really, really want to know the absolute truth of everything. It's not a bad thing. It just is. Most people are in 'self-preservation' mode, just like most other animals are. It's not bad, it's just instinct. I believe there are some, a small number even, who passionately want to know 'the truth'. Not to shove it down someone else's throat or bash it over someone else's head, but they just have a passion to discover, and a love for, truth. I firmly believe those people will find it. They will find the truth if they genuinely seek it with an open mind, but an open mind is a must. An open mind to reading all sorts of things. Yes, even the Bible, but other material as well. If you seek, you WILL find, but seeking is still a requirement.

You'll find that there is a lot of hostility to religion here on the forum.

I walk outside and I find hostility! :D I've come to expect it out of life. But I see awesomeness too.

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry it couldn't have been with a more gracious poster.

Thank you! But why are you apologizing? You seem gracious. You are the first one to welcome me. Someone else just told me 'I didn't get it'. That's not a 'welcome' in my books. ;D

I think the movie 'The Matrix' does a perfect job of illustrating most humans. There are only a few people who really want to know the truth and take the steps to seek it out. In real life, I believe most people don't really, really want to know the absolute truth of everything. It's not a bad thing. It just is. Most people are in 'self-preservation' mode, just like most other animals are. It's not bad, it's just instinct. I believe there are some, a small number even, who passionately want to know 'the truth'. Not to shove it down someone else's throat or bash it over someone else's head, but they just have a passion to discover, and a love for, truth. I firmly believe those people will find it. They will find the truth if they genuinely seek it with an open mind, but an open mind is a must. An open mind to reading all sorts of things. Yes, even the Bible, but other material as well. If you seek, you WILL find, but seeking is still a requirement. — Michael Phelps

Welcome, Mr. Phelps!

If it’s not impolite to ask, what is the truth?

I ask as though you know because you seem so convinced that there is “the truth”.

I suspect that you may be inclined to say something like “seek and ye shall find”. If so, please resist the temptation.

In real life, I believe most people don't really, really want to know the absolute truth of everything. — Michael Phelps

And some are realistic enough to know that attempting to find out the absolute truth of anything could take a lifetime and yield no results. However, discovering a little partial truth about some things can be an enjoyable and rewarding process.

'Quid est veritas?' ('What is truth?')
Pontius Pilate

I know what the truth is! ...until just now when I learned what I believed was not true, but this new thing is truth. Thus, NOW I know the truth.. until... :D

1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.

Kay from Men in Black

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that perhaps knowing the truth is not as important as loving people. Jesus said, 'I am the Truth'. So that's either true, and He is THE truth, or He is lying and a fraud. I don't know anyone else in history to have claimed that. So I am left with, either believing Him or living with no one being THE truth. The latter is not so bad, but when someone claims to be God, well I'd like to know, is this guy telling the truth? So far, what I've studied about Jesus seems to hold up. But do I know what the truth is? Well, as another writer did a GREAT job explaining the existence of God is not provable, I have faith. I have faith that what Jesus declared about Himself is true. I have faith that God, YHWH, created the universe. I believe God is love. I believe it because it is written in the Bible. Oh, so the Bible is 100% accurate, is it? Well, I'm just too lazy to nitpick and figure out which parts aren't accurate, so I just believe it all. It's me being lazy. But what IS true about God? Well, if I could describe Him, then he wouldn't be God.

I mentioned 'God is love'. As I was wrestling to answer my son's question of 'if God is so loving than...', I asked God to give me an answer. He asked me if believe He IS love. I said 'yes'. He continued, "Does the sun have an off switch (that I know of)?" I said, no. "Neither does my love." He replied. Hmmm... I quickly realized we don't see or feel the sun's light and heat due to where we are. Perhaps we don't feel God's love because of where we are, not His 'lack of love'.

So what is truth? Well, I believe God is love and he wants us to love Him. Selfish, I know, but I'm also not the Creator, so I go with it. He also wants us to love others. Mathematically, love duplicates itself. So love works. I do not know all truths but am on the journey to discover truths, but most importantly, I am on this journey WITH the Creator of the universe and we love each other. So, for now, rather than being 'right' I'd rather love.

Oh! I forgot to mention, Thank you for the warm welcome!

And some are realistic enough to know that attempting to find out the absolute truth of anything could take a lifetime and yield no results. However, discovering a little partial truth about some things can be an enjoyable and rewarding process. — Vera Mont

Amen!

Sorry about the 'edits'. I'm still figuring out how to quote properly.

I quickly realized we don't see or feel the sun's light and heat due to where we are. Perhaps we don't feel God's love because of where we are, not His 'lack of love'. — Michael Phelps

Ho-kay, that's a lot of feeling, and it may be partially authentic/original (as distinct from 'genuine', which has not been defined), though it's familiar enough to contain a substantial portion of cultural belief.

But I don't see it as an exercise in truth-finding in the same way as looking into a microscope or telescope. Those activities don't require feeling, either as physical sensation or as emotion; merely the use of sensory equipment and its augmentations to perceive data and our intellectual faculties to analyze and collate the data in order to interpret information as truth or untruth.
Can we exercise our sensory and intellectual equipment to determine the truth content of our emotions?

that says already explained how they are not genuine , supposedly. The question is why go on if they’re not.

it’s funny you should use the matrix as that movie had nothing to do with real reality, it was pretty much about transgender people and transitioning.

It’s also funny you use that movie as an example when religion itself, god, Jesus, etc, is the matrix. It provides a comforting and easy answer to the hard questions of life. But those who dare to go past it find how much isn’t certain and how little we truly know or control.

It’s often a warning sign to steer clear of such people who claim to have “truth” because more often than not they don’t. But people will follow and listen because the unknown is scary and the lack of control terrifies people.

One thing, of many, that made me believe there isn’t a god or that I have no reason to think so is the creation of life. No loving deity would ever create life.

I find it odd you have an issue with just surviving, seems to be enough for animals so why do you need more than that? You’ll find that God ends up being a poor answer for just about any question. I see no reason to think there is more than this nor would I wish it.

Sounds like fear of death. Also this has nothing to do with the OP.

Nobody explained what 'genuine' means, or how you can tell whether feelings are genuine or counterfeit. I have to go on, at least I find out! Then I'll decide.

Nobody explained what 'genuine' means, or how you can tell whether feelings are genuine or counterfeit — Vera Mont

I think "genuine" rather than a concept, it is a habit. It involves some positivism towards ethics. Doing or not doing some acts is what makes a person genuine. For example: honesty and authenticity.

Doing or not doing some acts is what makes a person genuine. — javi2541997

Only, the subject here was not persons or their character, but their emotions. As in: all our feelings are fake; they have no authenticity; therefore our life is not worth living.
And the reason our feelings are fake is that they're controlled, influenced and/or affected by something referred to as 'society', which is somehow external to and distinct from persons, but not defined; nor is it revealed where 'society' gets the concept of emotions or the motive and means to manipulate the counterfeit feelings of people.