How Atheism Supports Religion

Art48

Atheism supports religion? That may seem obviously wrong. After all, if there is no God, then religion fails. And the atheist says there is no God (hard atheist) or he/she simply lacks belief in God (soft atheism). How can either of those positions support religion?

Here’s how.

Many people have a deep need to believe in God. They need the comfort of believing their deceased loved ones still exist, that death isn’t the end, and that one day they will join their loved ones in heaven, that there is a protector who they can turn to in times of need, etc. They will not easily give up such comforting beliefs. So, when an atheist criticizes their religion, the believer may feel they have two choices: 1) give up belief in God, religion, and all the comforts that go with it, 2) or reject, ignore, or explain away what the atheist says.

Now, suppose someone argues as follows. “I believe God exists. I also believe the Bible tells enormous lies about God. For instance, Genesis 6 says God regrets making human beings and so kills all humanity with a great flood, except for Noah and his family. God regretted something he did? Ridiculous. So, God drowns infant, toddler, teenager, pregnant woman, senior citizen, and everyone else? What nonsense. What an enormous lie about God.”

Such an argument doesn’t ask the believer to give up faith in God and the comfort it gives. Rather, it merely points out how fundamentally silly some religious stories are. I’d say the argument has a much higher chance of being accepted by a believer than if an atheist makes the same argument.

In short, given the choice of belief in God versus non-belief, believers often stick with God. But a believer may be much more receptive to arguments that label silly religious beliefs as lies about God. When the atheist ask a believer to give up belief in God, the result is that the believer often rejects the atheist’s argument and, if anything, believes more strongly. Thus, atheism, in some cases, helps reinforce religious belief.

Agree?

Vera Mont

Agree? — Art48

Of course not. Pretend you believe to lull the believers into a false sense of security and then trash their holy book? What is that supposed to accomplish. They're not necessarily fools,. and most of them already know the Bible is full of tall tales and outmoded ideas, or else think it's all metaphorical and allegorical and symbolical, or some such excuse. They know it's not true, but they cling to it, because the foundation of their faith, the biography of their creator-deity and the existence as well as reason for their sacrificial deity are in there. That book is the container of their world-view and philosophy.
How can you be a good Christian while repudiating the Bible?
Or, for that matter, an honest atheist while denying that the god you disbelieve in is the one depicted in that same book?

. When the atheist ask a believer to give up belief in God, — Art48

Why should an atheist ask that? I have no desire to wean anyone off their religion. I only ask them not to force it, or its strictures, on other people.

praxis

Agree? — Art48

Yes and no. Yes that the existence of atheists can be used to strengthen religious identity by highlighting their otherness, but otherness can just as easily be applied to hieratics (those who question the Good Word).

Art48

Pretend you believe t — Vera Mont

I didn't mean atheists should pretend. There are people, myself included, who believe something that deserves to be called God exists, and that religions include tall tales which don't always reflect well on God.

Vera Mont

“I believe God exists. I also believe the Bible tells enormous lies about God. — Art48

I've heard that argument. You believe that "something" exists; you give it a capitalized generic name, but no identity, no past, no human contact, no creed to associate with. You're free to make up whatever laws or stories you like.
That can't replace faith in a personal father-god, who commands, judges, forgives, who loves you so much that he sends his only child to the gallows to save you from sin and invites the best part of you to live with him forever.
I am also free to make stories: I write fiction. I appreciate all the gods - demons, dragons, fauns, gorgons, succubi and saints - for their cultural contribution, and believe in none.

that religions include tall tales which don't always reflect well on God. — Art48

They reflect accurately on men. They are our legacy; the history of human aspiration and yearning, imagination and prejudice, power-lust and blood-lust; they tell our story.

Ciceronianus

Agree? — Art48

I think that certain religious beliefs are less preposterous than others. But I doubt believers care whether they're more or less preposterous to others, and will be unimpressed by any argument that they're beliefs are unreasonable regardless of whether they're told there is no God or that particular beliefs about God are unsupportable.

invicta

As a theist or God believer myself the opinions of atheists has no bearing on my belief system just as much as my belief system has a bearing on the atheist.

The existence of God cannot be proven no matter how strong the arguments may be. Likewise it cannot be disproven with 100% certainty either as you’re simply giving the burden of proof to the theist.

Therein lies the problem does it not ? Proof or more precisely the burden of proof which neither side can provide regarding Gods existence/non-existence.

By way of simple mysteries which cannot be rationally explained it’s best to be open minded on the matter.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.

invicta

As a theist though I do have to admit that the invocation of God to explain existence, the beginning of and other derivative questions does seem crude in the face of the atheist argument that things/the universe exists through normal albeit yet unexplainable natural phenomena.

javi2541997

The existence of God cannot be proven no matter how strong the arguments may be. Likewise it cannot be disproven with 100% certainty — invicta

You are right, this is the endless dilemma about God's existence. Yet, furthermore, of being an issue in "proofs" I think it can be better understood in terms of representation. The main two groups of evidence for God's image are Aquinas (everything that is around us is a proof of God's existence) or Kierkegaard (external world doesn't provide sustainable proofs to believe in God).

So, in this case, I guess the extension of God's existence will depend on each person's faith.

Tom Storm

In short, given the choice of belief in God versus non-belief, believers often stick with God. But a believer may be much more receptive to arguments that label silly religious beliefs as lies about God. When the atheist ask a believer to give up belief in God, the result is that the believer often rejects the atheist’s argument and, if anything, believes more strongly. Thus, atheism, in some cases, helps reinforce religious belief. — Art48

Depending upon the type of believer/atheist, I would have thought that atheists and believers generally talk past each other and don't comprehend each other's language or frames of reference.

But it is also the case that many atheists were once believers, often fundamentalist believers. People do find their way out of religion and the old arguments seem to lose their traction and believability, perhaps more so than atheist arguments gain appeal. Many atheists I have met from fundamentalist backgrounds take similar journey's from fundamentalist Christianity to progressive Christianity, to deism, to Wicca/Eastern mysticism, to skepticism and eventually to atheism. The sustaining strand is transcendence and eventually this too is forsaken.

Vera Mont

People do find their way out of religion and the old arguments seem to lose their traction and believability, perhaps more so than atheist arguments gain appeal. — Tom Storm

It's a very personal process. You don't lose a faith trough argument or persuasion; you lose it through intellectual growth or experience. Once you have begun to doubt, you can reason out how and why it happened, and maybe borrow the writings of atheists to explain. As long as you have faith, you can argue back against whatever an atheist says - or ignore it.

Tom Storm

↪Vera Mont

:up:

Hanover

You don't lose a faith trough argument or persuasion; you lose it through intellectual growth or experience. — Vera Mont

"Gain" works in this sentence as well as "lose."

180 Proof

Atheism supports religion? — Art48

Only insofar as many, maybe most, of the organizers, fundraisers & high officials of many, or most, religions tend to not practice what they preach as if 'g/G doesn't exist' to punish them for their frauds and other abuses. After all, what's a "religion" anyway? IMO, a conspiracy cult-driven pyramid scheme that feeds on an inexhaustible supply of earnestly gullible dupes &their brats.

:pray: :eyes: :mask:

Vera Mont

"Gain" works in this sentence as well as "lose." — Hanover

I'm not so sure. After all, missionaries have often been successful in making converts among colonized natives. Impressionable young people may turn to a religion under the influence of a mentor or admired role-model; others may be drawn to it by someone who helped them in a time of adversity or mental anguish. People who turn toward religion are usually in a vulnerable state - confused, troubled, anxious, grieving - and so more open to verbal inducement than they might otherwise be. Or they had been philosophically adrift, without firm convictions and looking for something to believe.

People who turn away from religion start from a very different position. They have been secure, anchored and certain; they were not looking for a change. Yet they somehow become uncertain, unmoored: religion let them down in some way. But what they were disillusioned with wasn't the logic - there had never been any logic, and it hadn't bothered them. It wasn't the lack of proofs or the inaccurate cosmology - it was emotional. Something they had relied on proved unreliable.

Religion offers solace, comfort and hope; atheism takes those things away.
Very different operations with different mechanisms.

T Clark

Many people have a deep need to believe in God. They need the comfort of believing their deceased loved ones still exist, that death isn’t the end, and that one day they will join their loved ones in heaven, that there is a protector who they can turn to in times of need, etc. They will not easily give up such comforting beliefs. So, when an atheist criticizes their religion, the believer may feel they have two choices: 1) give up belief in God, religion, and all the comforts that go with it, 2) or reject, ignore, or explain away what the atheist says. — Art48

You keep saying you're a theist and yet you treat religious people with smug contempt.

T Clark

↪Vera Mont

Given your sometimes harsh treatment of religious believers, I appreciated all your posts in this thread. Without backing off your strong opinions, you were generally respectful and seemed to have a sense of how believers really experience their beliefs.

T Clark

I think that certain religious beliefs are less preposterous than others. But I doubt believers care whether they're more or less preposterous to others, and will be unimpressed by any argument that they're beliefs are unreasonable regardless of whether they're told there is no God or that particular beliefs about God are unsupportable. — Ciceronianus

I've never thought any religious belief sounded any more "preposterous" than quantum mechanics. If you're in the mood for some pointless argument, there are plenty of reasonable arguments against religion, but preposterousness is not one of them.

180 Proof

↪T Clark

Yeah, but QM is the kind of "preposterousness" that works whether or not anybody "believes in" it, unlike any religion.

universeness

Religion:

a conspiracy cult-driven pyramid scheme that feeds on an inexhaustible supply of earnestly gullible dupes & their brats. — 180 Proof

:lol: :rofl:

180 Proof

↪universeness

:lol: I remember this fiasco well. "Let him who is without sin ..." but those pimps for Jesus cast stones anyway. :naughty:

universeness

↪180 Proof

Yep, and it's not like Jimmy boy is the only example of corrupt, nefarious individuals at the top of religious movements. Religious movements seem to be festooned with such characters.

I share the very serious concerns constantly raised by folks like Sam Harris, in snippets like this 12 minute offering below. We can't afford to be 'respectful,' to religious people, just because we might offend them or hurt their feelings. They have NO PROBLEM at all, attacking atheists and atheism, using every nasty insult their 'god fearin' brain can manifest. I have been on the receiving end of their ire too often to think differently. They will get very nasty indeed, when they totally fail to effectively answer the questions posed by atheists.

Vera Mont

Given your sometimes harsh treatment of religious believers, — T Clark

I'm not mean to believers; I'm critical of religious organizations. True believers can too easily be victimized, exploited and weaponized by hypocritical prelates.

Ciceronianus

I've never thought any religious belief sounded any more "preposterous" than quantum mechanics. If you're in the mood for some pointless argument, there are plenty of reasonable arguments against religion, but preposterousness is not one of them. — T Clark

Quantum mechanics certainly seems strange, but I think the analogy with religion doesn't work. I suspect that those studying QM approach things a bit differently than religious believers. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if it's taken up by religious apologists and claimed by them to support their religious beliefs. It seems that's been the case for a while now.

Vera Mont

It wouldn't surprise me, though, if it's [QM] taken up by religious apologists and claimed by them to support their religious beliefs. It seems that's been the case for a while now. — Ciceronianus

Because nobody understands it. Demonstrable, provable science is hard to suborn, which is why the anti-evolution arguments always try to exploit the perceived gaps, rather than the theory itself. But esoteric theoretical science can be likened to the mysterious ways in which God works. While the scientists operate by different rules and glean their information from different sources than the mystics, a creation myth doesn't sound more impossible than a big bang.

T Clark

Yeah, but QM is the kind of "preposterousness" that works whether or not anybody "believes in" it, unlike any religion. — 180 Proof

You're agreeing with the only point I was trying to make - the preposterous weirdness of quantum mechanics. So preposterous Einstein didn't believe it. He was an aQMiest.

T Clark

I'm not mean to believers; I'm critical of religious organizations.

Yes. — Vera Mont

T Clark

I suspect that those studying QM approach things a bit differently than religious believers. — Ciceronianus

Of course they do, but that wasn't the question on the table. You weren't talking about the methods, mindset, approach, or beliefs of scientists studying quantum mechanics. You were talking about QM's preposterousness. Now you're trying to change the subject.

TheMadMan

↪Art48

What you are describing as "atheist" is actually a anti-theist.
Your "atheist" is just a believer of no-god, but a believer nonetheless, that's why he/she is trying to convince the theist.
A real atheist would be indifferent to god.

Vera Mont

When the atheist ask a believer to give up belief in God, — Art48

Which atheist has asked which theist to give up their belief?
I'm an a-theist, not anti-theist. I have nothing against any of the gods I don't believe in, although I disapprove of many of their followers' practices. I have never, not once, tried to talk anyone out of believing in a deity or saint, although I have tried to convince some of them of some real-world facts.

I have asked theists to stop supporting oppressive legislation, stop insisting that only their sect's holy days be recognized, stop demanding that their doctrine be taught in public school, stop taking civil rights away from other people. I've never asked them to give up anything except political power.

180 Proof

↪universeness

I'm not a Sam Harris fan. As far as I'm concerned, "New Atheists" like him tend to traffic in irreligious polemics and pop-philosophizing (or patent sophistries) to sell books. I think the "fad" has (mostly due to Youtube) outlived it's usefulness.

A real atheist would be indifferent to god. — TheMadMan

Yes, but s/he cannot be "indifferent" to "the parties of God" at home and abroad (i.e. proselytizing theists and anti-secular political movements like right-wing Evangelicals, fundamentalists and other wanna be theocrats, theofascists, et al).

↪T Clark

I don't see how we "agree". Einstein was one of the founders of quantum physics and argued that its theoretical formulation was incomplete. AFAIK, Einstein never disputed its findings, only their interpretations. Again, QM is a matter of knowledge, not (make)belief like religion.

How Atheism Supports Religion

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