Only, the subject here was not persons or their character, but their emotions. As in: all our feelings are fake; they have no authenticity; therefore our life is not worth living. — Vera Mont

:up:

That's what was meant, if we don't genuinely feel anything, if we're just controlled by society then why bother living.

I'm sure you agree there's an aspect of your behavior that belongs only to yourself since you are a separate individual, an entity. Even if it's true that the entirety of our feelings are molded by society, that which is molded is particular to the individual. Twins will grow up to be different. It's the preservation of that particularity, one of the reasons one might bother living.

That's what was meant, if we don't genuinely feel anything, if we're just controlled by society then why bother living. — Darkneos

Yes, you said that. Several times. But I assume you didn't mean it, because if feelings aren't genuine, neither are thoughts. Society is just making you say that.

so again, why bother living? You’re not really answering.

No, there is no aspect of your behavior that belongs entirely to yourself.

It is one's behavior. Not someone else's.

You’re not really answering. — Darkneos

Yes, I am. Just not that question.

No, it’s imparted onto you by society.

again you’re still not

Neither are you.

I already did answer that. If we don’t genuinely feel things what’s the point in living. You haven’t really answered why anyone should.

You haven’t really answered why anyone should. — Darkneos

Okay: Nobody should. We just want to, because we feel that desire to live, and the fact that we continue to live as long as we are able proves that feeling is genuine. Therefore, the original proposition of this thread - couched in undefined terms and based on unsupported premises - was wrong.

but you haven’t proven it so. That desire to live is because society pushes it all the time. Most people don’t question whether their feelings are genuine or not.


So again IF they’re not then why bother living? Just because we have that desire isn’t a reason. I thought this was a philosophy forum.

but you haven’t proven it so. — Darkneos

Nor have you.

Most people don’t question whether their feelings are genuine or not. — Darkneos

That may be true, or it may not, but neither possibility supports any of your premises, or any of your cause-effect assumptions.

Just because we have that desire isn’t a reason. — Darkneos

It's the best, truest, most compelling and most genuine reason.

I thought this was a philosophy forum. — Darkneos

And I used to think that in philosophy, the one proffering a theory would define their terms and support their argument.

it’s funny you should use the matrix as that movie had nothing to do with real reality, it was pretty much about transgender people and transitioning. — Darkneos

I was wondering if the writers intentionally wrote the script to describe faith. Apparently not. That brings up a side question: should someone who states an inaccurate statement unintentionally get credit?'

It’s also funny you use that movie as an example when religion itself, god, Jesus, etc, is the matrix. It provides a comforting and easy answer to the hard questions of life. But those who dare to go past it find how much isn’t certain and how little we truly know or control. — Darkneos

I would argue that God, Jesus, etc are NOT easy answers. They are simple answers, but NOT easy. If it WAS easy, it would require no faith.

Regarding control. I believe humans overall, know very little and can control also, very little. It's only the perception of controlling things, especially others. I fail to see the correlation between knowing lots and the perception of controlling lots to the existence of God.

It’s often a warning sign to steer clear of such people who claim to have “truth” because more often than not they don’t. But people will follow and listen because the unknown is scary and the lack of control terrifies people. — Darkneos

How can anyone know if someone else 'has faith' or not? It's like saying, 'your feeling is wrong'. Also, I thought it would be God's role to determine one's level of faith.

One thing, of many, that made me believe there isn’t a god or that I have no reason to think so is the creation of life. No loving deity would ever create life. — Darkneos

Except for love. Love must have another to exist.

I find it odd you have an issue with just surviving, seems to be enough for animals so why do you need more than that? — Darkneos

I don't have an issue with 'just surviving'. That's fine. What I was stating is that asking the question 'what is the point of going on...?' implies that one is already thinking beyond mere survival mode.

You’ll find that God ends up being a poor answer for just about any question. I see no reason to think there is more than this nor would I wish it. — Darkneos

Well, your feeling about this is wrong! Sorry, I couldn't resist. That opinion is fine. Thank you for sharing it, but I encourage you to stop 'wondering what the purpose of living is'. Stick with survival.

Sounds like fear of death. — Darkneos

Um, personally, I am not only NOT afraid to die, but I also look forward to getting my next body (yes, I believe that in faith). If I was doing any better, I'd be dead, but I love life fully! I cannot speak for others if they believe in God but are also afraid to die.

Also this has nothing to do with the OP. — Darkneos

Understood. So despite that, thank you for continuing this conversation.

Lastly, can you do me a favor?

Can you put a smile on someone else's face today?

Because your feeling is wrong. So far there isn’t evidence to suggest any sort of god or anything else beyond the here and now. You just sound delusional more than anything else. You’re believe it’s just that, faith and little else.

Asking what’s the point isn’t really looking beyond survival but more the question of why one survives. Animals and plants just do it without questioning. Humans was why do all this? Is there a point? Some are ok with there being no point.

What I want to know is why you made a new account just to horn in on this discussion with something utterly irrelevant. Seems iffy to me.

God is just one of those things you grow out of into something better.

what’s there to support it’s simply a fact of life so you haven’t really given a counter to that point.

It's the best, truest, most compelling and most genuine reason. — Vera Mont

It’s actually not the most genuine, compelling, truest reason especially if society is making you want it, so that’s just wrong. Not even close there.

Not even close there. — Darkneos

:grin:
:grin:

it’s not.

How can you genuinely feel anything. You are taught how to feel about certain things, how certain values are good and what one ought to value. Nothing you feel is genuine because it’s all just manufactured by society. You can trust anything you feel because it’s just a nonstop spiral of manufactured emotions.

"Nothing you feel is genuine because it’s all just manufactured by society".

This is bs. What you feel is to some extent dependent on your physical attributes, as well - among many other things, such as the space you occupy. Also, we develop behaviors when in solitude, too, man. Think a bit more about what you are saying but try to leave your feelings behind if you can. You are oversimplifying things here way too much.

When you try something sweet it causes some sort of happy reaction in you, a type of response which I dare too say needs not be taught. Even other animals like horses react weirdly happy when they try sweet things, specially if it is their first time.

Can you prove any of that? Some people grow up in societies when that sort of sweet thing doesn’t cause a happy reaction and some people just don’t get happy by it at all.

We don’t develop behaviors in solitude either as evidenced by feral children they find in the wild.

It’s not oversimplifying you just don’t see the reach society has on you. Everything you felt was manufactured, none of it was you, none of it was real. You’re more or less a robot following social programming.

And like she said about meditation you will find yourself watching these feelings and how you don’t control them. Then you begin to question if these really are your feelings if you can’t control them, and soon you create distance from your feelings enough to see that you’re essentially hostage to “someone else”.

How can you genuinely feel anything. You are taught how to feel about certain things, how certain values are good and what one ought to value. Nothing you feel is genuine because it’s all just manufactured by society. You can trust anything you feel because it’s just a nonstop spiral of manufactured emotions. — Darkneos

Round - what - five? six?
Define "genuine"
Define "feeling"
Who is "you"?
What is "society"?
Where does the concept of emotions originate?
Where does society originate?
What is society's motivation for influencing my emotions?
What does society gain from influencing my emotions?
How would my "genuine" emotions differ from the manipulated ones you posit?
What relationship is there between counterfeit feelings and reasons for living?
Why do you consider living 'a bother' someone chooses to undertake, rather than a natural process?
Are you yourself alive? If so why do you bother to live and post?
Are you yourself part of or under the influence of a society?
If so, how do you know your thoughts are genuine?
If not, how do you know anything about people who are?

Genuine being uncaused or affected by anything else.

Feeling is feeling, the response you get.

You is you, the subject. Though with meditation it could be the watcher or the experiencer.

Society is where we live.

Society originates from us. It influences your emotions to establish control and order.

Your genuine emotions would be yours and not what society says you ought to feel over this.

If feelings are all fake then there is no reason to live since you’re just a puppet of the world and not really living.

I live because suicide is painful.

The rest can be explained by the original quote, essentially meditation shows nothing you feel is genuine it’s causes and effect and the specificity of that response is based on what society says you ought to feel towards it. She said so so that’s the truth.

Genuine being uncaused or affected by anything else. — Darkneos

Name a few examples aside from Gawd.

Feeling is feeling, the response you get. — Darkneos

Where did I get it?

You is you, the subject. Though with meditation it could be the watcher or the experiencer. — Darkneos

I, you, and every other entity is an experiencer, whether they meditate or not, whether they will it or not, whether they know it or not.

Society is where we live. — Darkneos

I live in a house. Outside of my house and family, there is a society of other human beings, who feel, think and act very similarly to the way I feel, think and act. If every one of them has only counterfeit feelings, there are no genuine feelings in any human being, except possibly a half dozen hermits in the wilderness. And since they're not in contact with the rest of humanity, none of us ever has come into contact with a genuine feeling, nor ever will, and therefore none of us, including you, have any standard by which to judge.

Society originates from us. It influences your emotions to establish control and order. — Darkneos

Like our emails? Where did "it" get an independent mind and will of its own, and the aspiration to order and control its progenitors?

Your genuine emotions would be yours and not what society says you ought to feel over this. — Darkneos

If - what? If society didn't exist? But I am part of a society, so if it didn't exist then I wouldn't exist, and who then would feel my genuine emotions?

If feelings are all fake then there is no reason to live since you’re just a puppet of the world and not really living. — Darkneos

You have not established that 'genuine feelings' - which nobody living in a society has or can have - are the purpose of human life.

I live because suicide is painful. — Darkneos

But pain and fear of pain are feelings, and therefore unreal.

essentially meditation shows nothing you feel is genuine it’s causes and effect and the specificity of that response is based on what society says you ought to feel towards it. — Darkneos

So it's meditation that makes her suicidal. That shouldn't be too hard to avoid.

:grin:

I, you, and every other entity is an experiencer, whether they meditate or not, whether they will it or not, whether they know it or not. — Vera Mont

Well in meditation if you do it there is a state they say where you are watching the experience as if from afar. So in a sense you become the watcher and not the experiencer which casts doubt on the claim that they are an experiencer.

Like our emails? Where did "it" get an independent mind and will of its own, and the aspiration to order and control its progenitors? — Vera Mont

Well that’s just what society does

You have not established that 'genuine feelings' - which nobody living in a society has or can have - are the purpose of human life — Vera Mont

But they are what everyone places value one. Talking about what they really want to do instead of what society says they should and the conflict between. Or whether you really love someone or are just pretending.

also she’s not suicidal not sure where you got that

she’s not suicidal — Darkneos

I'm so relieved!

not sure where you got that — Darkneos

here:

essentially meditation shows nothing you feel is genuine it’s causes and effect and the specificity of that response is based on what society says you ought to feel towards it. She said so so that’s the truth. — Darkneos

There:

Well if nothing we feel is genuine then why bother living? — Darkneos

and there

If feelings are all fake then there is no reason to live since you’re just a puppet of the world and not really living. — Darkneos

and thither

then why bother living? Just because we have that desire isn’t a reason. — Darkneos

and yon

so again, why bother living? — Darkneos

Whoops, I almost forgot to be a cheerful :grin: muppet. (Grover, in case you wondered)

One only knows apparent reality through one's body as biological reactions, or a biological readout if you like, it indicates what those outside energies mean to the body; not so much about the nature of the energy forms themselves. The form, fields or objects alter one's biology and this is experience/ knowledge, but it is knowledge of biological response, knowledge of effect. Only in part knowledge of the energy form or object as cause, it is apparent, relative to biology.