The owner may die in the office from obesity and a sedentary lifestyle too. So what? The owner may die in a car crash from all the travelling he has to do, etc. etc. There's risks with everything in life so don't bullshit. The worker also doesn't necessarily risk serious injury or death - it all depends on the job. — Agustino
Why don't you tell him that money can't buy him power? — Agustino
So long as you can order them to do something and they execute it, then you do have power. — Agustino
Right, but nobody has any doubts about that. Governing society requires the use of fair-weather friends since most people aren't that moral to begin with. So leaders always have to make good use of these people in order to successfully govern a society. Their energy, greed and lust has to be channeled in productive directions. — Agustino
I don't understand why you say I'm bashful, but to answer your question, power is influence and capacity to direct the march of society - capacity to set the rules. — Agustino
There's only some people who can handle power morally, and they should as per Plato, want it the most. — Agustino
The law only exists when it is enforced, and it can only be enforced by the powerful (naturally). And when the powerful are immoral and corrupt, then you're fucked, if they happen to put their eyes on you. — Agustino
Power doesn't mean loyalty. Loyalty is, or can be, an important aspect of power, but it's not the only one. — Agustino
Power means the capacity to decide on the direction of society, to influence others, and/or the capacity to guarantee (or not) property and other rights. — Agustino
Yes they are related. If you're forced to sit on the chair all day long in an office, and be on the phone the whole time, that certainly is going to impact your health in a not so good way.We're talking about the risk which is directly related to the person's occupation. Those risks which you claim the owner is involved in, are unrelated, and are therefore not relevant to the discussion. — Metaphysician Undercover
Losing a pile of cash is very relevant. He may not have money to feed his family if he loses a pile of cash. His aspirations to be an entrepreneur may be shattered. His credit-worthiness may be shattered. And so forth. Maybe if he took the money, or part of it, from the wrong person, he may even get shot. Or a competitor may arrange to have him killed. Or the government could get him in jail for not adequately following certain laws. Who knows - there's a lot of things that could potentially happen to the entrepreneur, that cannot happen to the worker.The risk you referred to was the risk of loosing a pile of cash, and this is just an illusion of risk, a number in the ledger. How does a changing number in the ledger translate to real risk, so as to be comparable to the risk which the miner takes in going to work every day? — Metaphysician Undercover
Then tell me, why is he laughing at the judicial system?Judging by the content of the clip, he seems to already recognize that he has no real power. — Metaphysician Undercover
Mr. Shkreli, because the others are not capable to get what they want out of him, and he openly mocks them. By openly mocking them, and showing them they have no authority over him, he is demonstrating power. He tells them, not verbally, but non-verbally, you can't do anything to me.So which person in the film clip would you say has "power", Mr. Cummings, Mr Gowdy? Surely Mr.Shkreli demonstrates no capacity to tell anyone what to do. He claims the fifth. — Metaphysician Undercover
Who said it is only an illusion of power? I've defined power in this case as having his orders followed. He can get his orders followed, therefore he is powerful.There is contradiction inherent within this position though. If the rich person values money, and the fair-weather friend is relieving him of his money, to give him the illusion of power, then how can you say that the rich person is using the fair-weather friend? — Metaphysician Undercover
Well it is true that the fair-weather friend also likes the arrangement, otherwise he wouldn't be doing favours for the rich man. Of course he's also profiting from it, but he doesn't get to decide on what gets done. Rather the rich man tells him do this, and he just does it.Clearly the opposite is the case. The fact that the term "fair-weather friend" is used, is evidence that the opposite is really the case. — Metaphysician Undercover
It means deciding what will happen in the world. Why does that confuse you? It means deciding whether, for example, the Central Bank will print more dough or not."Direct the march of society"? What does that mean? — Metaphysician Undercover
Remember that rules only exist in-so-far as they are followed/enforced, so the capacity to set rules absolutely entails that others will follow them. Otherwise you're simply not setting rules, you're just kidding yourself.The capacity to set rules is not the same thing as inspiring people to follow rules. — Metaphysician Undercover
Right, you've discovered that brute force isn't a very good way to get mass obedience over the long term. That's true, Sun Tzu, and all other military strategists didn't think otherwise either.If I point guns at peoples' heads, and force them to follow rules, I can only point so many guns, and as soon as the people are out of my sights, they will not follow my rules. It's only a matter of a short period of time before one comes up behind me. — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes, obviously they should want it the least in the sense that it can be dangerous to themselves and their families. But they should want it the most in the sense that if they don't want it, someone worse than them will. So if you have the necessary capacities, you should try to rise to the top to prevent someone worse than you from doing it, even if doing so will put you and your family at risk.You've got this backwards. According to Plato, it's the people who want it the least, who are best suited to rule. They know it's the worst possible job to have, and will only take that job if the present ruler is so bad that living under this rule is worse than ruling. — Metaphysician Undercover
Nope, I didn't say power has to be enforced. Please read again.When power has to be "enforced", this is not true power, it is the illusion of power. — Metaphysician Undercover
I agree, but loyalty is not necessary from everyone.And so-called "power" through the use of force does not promote loyalty. — Metaphysician Undercover
By, for example, using their money to fund a certain ideology over another for example. Then one ideology will have more resources, and hence more capacity to disseminate through society (like George Soros does). By setting the laws which delimit what others can and can't do. By deciding what gets aired on TV (in the case they own media for example). And so forth. Really, you're asking quite naive questions it seems to me...I still don't know what you mean by "direction of society". Could you explicate? Society consists of a whole bunch of people. They are only going to go in the direction which they want to go. How could one person have the capacity to decide the direction of society? — Metaphysician Undercover
I meant to say that neo-liberalism isn't the answer to the things you demand from it, e.g eliminating poverty or homelessness. — Question
Losing a pile of cash is very relevant. He may not have money to feed his family if he loses a pile of cash. — Agustino
Maybe if he took the money, or part of it, from the wrong person, he may even get shot. Or a competitor may arrange to have him killed. Or the government could get him in jail for not adequately following certain laws. — Agustino
Then tell me, why is he laughing at the judicial system? — Agustino
Who said it is only an illusion of power? I've defined power in this case as having his orders followed. He can get his orders followed, therefore he is powerful. — Agustino
Well it is true that the fair-weather friend also likes the arrangement, otherwise he wouldn't be doing favours for the rich man. Of course he's also profiting from it, but he doesn't get to decide on what gets done. Rather the rich man tells him do this, and he just does it. — Agustino
Yes, obviously they should want it the least in the sense that it can be dangerous to themselves and their families. But they should want it the most in the sense that if they don't want it, someone worse than them will. So if you have the necessary capacities, you should try to rise to the top to prevent someone worse than you from doing it, even if doing so will put you and your family at risk. — Agustino
Nope, I didn't say power has to be enforced. Please read again. — Agustino
The law only exists when it is enforced, and it can only be enforced by the powerful (naturally). — Agustino
Really, you're asking quite naive questions it seems to me... — Agustino
Why neo-liberalism? — Terrapin Station
I pointed out a number of problems a la homelessness, lack of health care, etc. — Terrapin Station
So, what's the issue here? — Question
Ok, I understand that much. So, you have to have some alternative. What is it then? — Question
Well then, I guess most businessmen aren't "good businessmen" then.He's not a good business man if he invests so much that losing it will leave him unable to feed his family. — Metaphysician Undercover
I don't know based on what you're saying they are signs of bad business. Sounds more like an excuse to me. It's like me saying "oh getting injured in a mine happened because he's just a bad worker".These are all signs of bad business, and are not the type of risk that a good business man would take. — Metaphysician Undercover
Except that as far as I'm aware they haven't been able to pass judgement on him, even till today.What makes you that laughing at the judicial system, even while it passes judgement on you, constitutes having power? — Metaphysician Undercover
No, they can't. They'll be replaced by someone who is willing to do it for less. The rich man has the power. The other one doesn't. If he wants to get paid, he must obey. The rich man, if he wants whatever he wants done, doesn't have to obey anyone. If someone refuses to do what he asks, he just needs to go to the next person. There's always another one waiting. The rich man will in the end still get what he wants.The one getting paid is actually in the position of having power, because that person can simply refuse to do what the other wants, requesting more and more money. — Metaphysician Undercover
No he's not obliged to pay anyone's requests in particular.Since the one whom you think has power, is obliged to pay the requests of the others, since he desires to have the feeling of power (that the others are following his orders), it is the others, the ones demanding money, and getting paid, who are having their orders followed, not the one paying. — Metaphysician Undercover
Sure.Do you know what "fair-weather friend" means? He's only a friend while it is profitable to him. — Metaphysician Undercover
That's if the fair-weather friend doesn't need the rich man's money.And if that rich man is belligerent, the fair-weather friend will rapidly become an enemy. — Metaphysician Undercover
What do you mean by "difficult"? It's a job not worth doing based on purely rewards vs risk analysis. That's why it's difficult.is the most difficult job — Metaphysician Undercover
In what sense is there a law against pickpocketing if no pickpocketer ever gets punished? We can agree that if there is a written law, and it is never enforced, then it actually doesn't exist at all. Really this is not rocket science MU.So you assume a relation between law and power, such that law only exists through the means of enforcement. — Metaphysician Undercover
Power is more than simply the capacity to enforce laws, rules, etc. It also includes, for example, changing them.Now, you separate power from laws, saying that power does not necessarily enforce. — Metaphysician Undercover
No, I haven't said it's just that. In fact, power has nothing with making people do what YOU want, only with making people do something.For example, you define power as the capacity to make people do what you want. — Metaphysician Undercover
No, a phone call can be enough.Suppose one has that capacity, power, wouldn't that person be making rules so that the others would be doing what is wanted? — Metaphysician Undercover
Is Trump powerful?I think power is having people want to do what you want them to — Metaphysician Undercover
Riiiight, I guess we should remove all punishments from the law, people will just obey anyway. No punishment for breaking the law. Why the hell don't we do that?!From this perspective, the powerful make rules and laws which the people obey because they want to obey them, not because of enforcement. — Metaphysician Undercover
>:O >:O >:O Hahahaha! And clearly most people are very rational, and very capable to perceive that what you say is logical, consistent and meaningful.They want to please you because what you say is logical, consistent, and meaningful, so they trust that in pleasing you, they are doing good tasks. — Metaphysician Undercover
What role do punishments for breaking the law play?You think that the human will must be forced to follow laws. — Metaphysician Undercover
I wish I knew what "enlightened" self-interest was. — Bitter Crank
It's like dried water; really useful, except for the slight drawback that it can't possibly exist. — unenlightened
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