You spend enough time in meditation, you will realize that you never genuinely feel feelings in the first place
it is all just cause and effect response
and a lot of the time the specificity of that response is ascribed to how societal expectations dictate one should be effected by a particular cause
loss-->sadness
gain-->joy
Yest, I got that and your viewpoint in the first place by reading your description of the topic.society makes you feel ways about certain things. ... society makes us care about things that we normally wouldn't. — Darkneos
Yes, of course there's always a cause for every feeling. And indeed, grief is caused by loss. Not only in humans but in animals too. Maybe in plants too, if we accept the belief that they feel too.it is all just cause and effect response.
and a lot of the time the specificity of that response is ascribed to how societal expectations dictate one should be effected by a particular cause
loss-->sadness
gain-->joy — Darkneos
Yest, I got that and your viewpoint in the first place by reading your description of the topic.
I just viewed the question "Do we genuinely feel things?" from a simpler aspect. In its essence. Indepedently of what external factors cause feelings. There can be millions of them. And why society in particular? Your wife or husband or family or a a friend may make you feel a certain way. On purpose or not. Even ourselves --out subconscious-- make us feel things that are not natural; for no apparent or real reason.
In every case, i.e. independenty of the cause, the fact is that we feel them. And what we feel is genuine.
Maybe the title of the topic is misleading then ... — Alkis Piskas
Also, I know, by experience on the subject of emotions, that what society makes us feel is of much less importance and has much less consequences for us than what people around us, and esp. close ones, cause us. On purpose or not. Almost all traumas in our lives are created by people, esp. family, since the time we are born. — Alkis Piskas
I see now what you mean. But everything is caused by something. So, according to your point, nothing is genuine!But it's caused by something so it's not genuine. How our family makes you feel is based on how society says you ought to feel about it. — Darkneos
Right. This is what I said.Then by that dictionary definition we do genuinely feel things. — Darkneos
Who is "she"? In fact, your message has nothing to do with what I have said so far. Most probably you are responding to someone else's message than mine ...What she meant by genuine and what I meant are two different things.. — Darkneos
An unstated premise is that if your feelings are cause and effect response, the feelings aren't genuine. Is there anything else we would say is not genuine because it is involved in chain of causes and effects?You spend enough time in meditation, you will realize that you never genuinely feel feelings in the first place
it is all just cause and effect response
If the world is deterministic, then everything is being controlled, in this sense.But if you are being affected or influenced by something else then it's not genuine, you're being controlled. — Darkneos
I think we all have a sense that person X congratulated us on gradutating or having a kid and it felt like someone going through the motions or performing a norm and someone who was genuinely happy. Or someone who managed to express something against the norm in those situations. Perhaps they thought we had a child too young or with the wrong person and even though you're not supposed to be honest, they were.
I think there is a meaningful distinction here around genuine feelings and not so geniune responses. And not, the feelings are probably real, even in people who try to suppress any 'wrong' reaction and present themselves 'correctly'. They have whatever they are feeling as feelings - though they may not want to notice what those feelings are if they don't fit. So, they may think they are happy you are happy with your new partner when really they are jealous. But their responses, the whole mess of it, is genuine, it just may not match their official position on what they are feeling. — Bylaw
I think there is a difference between someone faking it and someone who means it. Like people who congratulate you on something, because that's what you're supposed to do. — Darkneos
But there's saying that and meaning it, which I think is what she might be alluding to but misses the point. — Darkneos
What I read her saying is not that you deliberately fake some emotions - which we already knew with no help from meditation - but that all the ones you actually do feel are fake; manufactured and implanted by a nebulous external entity called "society". — Vera Mont
Of course there is, and we all recognize the difference, even while we also go through the courteous motions, for the sake of social harmony. Even if one doesn't much care about a stranger's achievement, to refrain from congratulating them would be an insult and cause ill-feeling. — Vera Mont
But that can't be true because then where did society get that from? — Darkneos
I would think faking it would hurt more. Nothing stings more than someone who is "just being nice". — Darkneos
I'm also not really sure how society makes us feel things, if it did then why doesn't it work for everyone. — Darkneos
this proved you wrong: — Darkneos
On the contrary: it seems to be reiterating, in less picturesque and more rigorous language, that humans are social animals, interacting in complex ways with one another, their immediate environment and larger society. Nowhere have I ever said that each emotion is isolated or uncaused. — Vera Mont
Me too. I was likely not clear.I think there is a difference between someone faking it and someone who means it. — Darkneos
Or if you simply have a different reaction even though you are close.If it's someone close then yes you'll be happy for them, but if not then you phone it in. — Darkneos
Right, and I think the transition from less genuine to more genuine like that is telling. You can't really doubt that this can happen after having such an experience.Reminds me of the time I told my therapist I stopped loving my mom and felt bad because it seemed like I was supposed to do that, then he said it's ok. IT was a relief. — Darkneos
Quite interesting.Our senses and understanding are fallible. Our senses give us experience due to the energies or objects of the physical world creating alterations to our body, thus informing bodily consciousness; for it is through the body we come to know an apparent reality. Our apparent reality is made up of reactions to these outer energies or objects, telling us more about our sensory experience than about the energies or objects in and of themselves. So, apparent reality is a biological readout, as much dependent upon the energies/objects of our outer world as it is on the perceptions of their alterations to our bodies. — boagie
I can see if the expression is violent or some kind of act in the world - like making up stuff about someone on the internet. But do you include expressing emotions in sound, facial expressions, posture. Like screaming in grief, say.We genuinely feel basic emotions on the individual level, and we genuinely share some part of the sentiments, cultural biases and loyalties of our collective, but we are also often injured by the genuine expressions of feelings of other members — Vera Mont
But do you include expressing emotions in sound, facial expressions, posture. Like screaming in grief, say. — Bylaw
Ok, that's good, common ground.I don't see how grief can injure other people. — Vera Mont
A couple of things with these two related acts: 1) they are more than expression of emotion. There would likely be verbal content in there. The person is not simply expressing emotion, but finding a way to communicate negative things about the other person or at least what they are doing. Of course, no society rules out derision. It would just be sanctioned for some things and not others. Wherever one sits on the political spectrum there are, within one's subgroup expressions of derision that are acceptable. And there are likely some in common. Someone advocating for pedophilia would meet derision and that derision would generally be seen as fine. That doesn't entail that derision in general is ok, but it's already got it's place. 2) Derision can hurt feelings, yes. And I think it's especially powerful in relation to children. That said, I don't think we can expect to protect each other from hurt feelings. Systematic derision, especially from adults towards children, well, that should be treated, I think, by intervention, but also by expressions of anger and perhaps derision aimed at people who do this. I say, we can't expect to protect people from hurt feelings. We also don't do this. And I think the whole pattern shifts if we move towards also allowing those with hurt feelings (so generally some mix of fear, sadness and anger) to express those feelings. These feeling are also suppressed in society and that hurts. Suppressing feelings in general hurts. Not getting to express feelings hurts. People choosing not to be your friend hurts. Not making the basketball team hurts. Failing a math test hurts. We are allowed to do all sorts of things that hurt people's feelings. And it would hurt feelings if we couldn't, either immediately or down the line in the future.But derision and mockery can — Vera Mont
So, I have a similar reaction to these. Envy is a complicated cognitive reaction. There are emotions and also thoughts mingled in it. I think expressing those feelings does not add to the problem. Envy often leads to all sorts of passive aggressive behavior, trash talking people, undermining them. For the person themselves, not expressing the emotions (by themselves, with others) is a very unpleasant stagnant state. It's not really going anywhere. Actually expressing envy even to the person you are envious of, is actually a rather bold and honest move. It's a pretty vulnerable thing to do. I am angry at you and hurt because you have that girlfriend, got that raise, can jump higher than me. Perhaps with accusations of unfairness. If the other person can actually express their emotions, maybe the whole thing can move somewhere. But I see no reason to believe that holding in those emotions creates a net good.envy and anger can and does hurt feelings — Vera Mont
I think we have had these judgments so long it just seems true that these things must be suppressed.And that is why children are taught to control their temper — Vera Mont
Again this is a complicated act not a simple expression of emotion. The person who does this, even a child, needs to feel superior to someone else and likely has not expressed their feelings of fear, anger and sadness about the way they are parented, failures in school or social life, feelings of inadequacy. We keep pointing to where the pressure bursts through and think we need to build better walls, without ever finding out what it would be like if we accepted emotions in general. And where I have been mocked by other children, I vastly preferred that to when it was suppressed by still present. To be held outside, dealt with more coldly. They are thinking the same things, but not saying them. Much better for me to hear it and be able to get pissed off and even sad, instead of living in this nebulous emotion fog where my emotions seem like reactions to things that aren't real. Or might not be real. Other people's reactions don't go away, they just go underground and still have effects. Also, we have to deal with all that then. If some kids feel like mocking a child for being disabled or whatever and we manage to get them not to express that, they are still not dealing with the roots of all that. They are behaving better on the surface. Where is that urge coming from? What happens if they express this and then the disabled child expresses rage and sadness back or his or her parents do? Or they all get together. I think there's this real pessimism and hopelessness in this collective decision to selectively suppress our emotions. And we are avoiding actually learning.and refrain from laughing at another's disability, physical or mental shortcomings, — Vera Mont
I used to find that horrifying, to hear that or express it. But the truth is we feel that. And if we are ever going to deal with things like the chasm between men and women, we are going to have to express that stuff. And to manage to listen. I can now hear that aimed at me and know that this feeling, like the others, comes and goes. And I can then with the other person see what is going on at root.not to say they hate people, even if they do feel that way — Vera Mont
But I think we are going to have to finally get to an honest interdependence based on full honesty. Slowly, carefully. Because while the moment you suppress a so-called negative emotion may seem improved, it didn't just go away. It's underneath, keeping away real intimacy, ready to pop out when the pressure builds, keeping you in a jailor/prisoner relation with yourself, adding this secret distance and I think actually contributing to violence and a lack of compassion.Emotions are of the moment; social interdependence is for the long term. — Vera Mont
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.