However I later realised its not money that causes harm, its what we choose to use it for. Money has done/continues to do great things - feed the poor, house the homeless, educate the uneducated, support social rehabilitation, urban renewal etc. The list of good deeds done with money as the vector is as long as all those done for selfish, perverse or evil reasons. — Benj96

Anything that can be used for evil can also be used for 'walled garden,' style good. In other words, as long as a knife is only ever used to cut food/whittle pretty ornamentation etc, then we can call it a good tool. It's ability to also function as a lethal weapon, shows the need to control it. Money is the same.
It can be used as an inert means of exchange, but it can also be used, and IS mainly used, as a very powerful capitalist tool, which helped to create and IS the main method of maintaining the global plutocracy that currently holds our species back, and leaves the stewardship of this planet, mainly in the hands of a tiny, nefarious, rich and powerful few.
My father used to push an old idea for better money control, in that it should have a use-by date, or there should be different kinds of money. Money that can only be used to buy food, and another kind for entertainment etc, within a society, where individuals don't pay for fuel, water, shelter, medical health or education. So, some beneficial use may be found for currency transactions in a resource based global economy, but it's role would be a strict 'walled garden,' style one.

How do you barter apples for shoes each week when the size, variety and quality of apples might naturally change with the seasons while the quality of shoes does not. Money removes this issue. — Benj96

I am not suggesting replacing money with something as basic as a barter system.
I take it YOU have no apples or shoes to barter! YOU offer YOUR human faculties and YOUR human labour, to contribute to the benefit of ALL that exists in the universe. All you require in return, is your basic physical needs, support to find cause and purpose in your life, and to be treated as an equal, and as having significance in a vast universe, within which YOU may represent the ONLY species, that can currently demonstrate an ability to 'figure out,' the structure and working of the universe, FROM THE INSIDE OUT, as there is NO evidence at all, of anything outside, observing in.

I am a theist. — Benj96

I have read your posts in which you have professed attractions to some personal concept of dualism or perhaps even an emerging panpsychism but NOT theism! To read such words from you is disappointing.
What are the attributes of the god you believe in?

So I chose to develop my own theistic theory all things considered.
My relationship to the universe is a unique one and I'm not interested in imposing it on anyone all I offer is discussion and my views. The rest is up to others. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. — Benj96

You wont get away with such declarations. It's not a case of imposing your views on others, its a case of justifying your views to others. If you don't open to full scrutiny then your 'theism,' will be ridiculed in the same way as all other unjustified theism.

Should they be? I don't think so. Are they? Sadly yes.
There's even a valuation of human life (insurance companies). And the popular quote "time is money" reflects the fact that your salary reflects how much your hours of life left are worth compensating. — Benj96

And that is an outcome of monetization, and that is an outcome of money as a means of assigning value. Of course it's wrong. Money is one of humankind's worst inventions. It corrupts the human psyche even more effectively than power - and it buys power, so the two most corrosive elements of society are in the same hands.

An hour of life of a minimum wage worker doing a job they don't want to do is worth less than that of an hour of the life of a tech CEOs. — Benj96

On average, 1/670. That's not so bad, given what a foot-soldier's life is worth compared to an emperor's.

Hence why in an ideal world we would all do jobs we love/are passionate about. — Benj96

Do what you love, share what you make, take what you need.
Learn what you can, teach what you know.

The usual conservative reaction to social welfare or GBI is: "Nobody will have an incentive work."
And yet, retired people used to die for lack of meaningful work. They don't anymore: they start new enterprises, learn new skills, keep busy doing the work they choose for themselves.

First, I'd like to reject the conflation of 'liberty' with 'a free lunch'.
Second, I do not believe that anyone can be autonomous free, or that any desirable thing can be attained entirely without cost.
Third, that is not a rejection or freedom itself, nor of the word; it merely puts them into a realistic perspective. — Vera Mont

There is commonality in concept between free, dom/lunch/love/money etc.
'Free,' commonly defined as:
'able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another'
'not or no longer confined or imprisoned'
'not subject to engagements or obligations'

I assume your use of 'free' in

Nothing is truly free — Vera Mont

, suggests no 'cost' or no 'consequence,' etc but freedom is in reality, in my opinion, subjective.
Energy (as a fundamental) cannot be created or destroyed only changed in form. Energy as a fundamental IS therefore 'free,' as there is no associated cost or consequence. Cost and consequence only come into the picture when 'fundamental' energy changes form.
I am not just trying to be a nitpicking nudnick here Vera.
Trying to provide an exemplar of an existent that IS free from all notions of cost and consequence is not easy in an entropic universe, but I do think that there are such existents.

The theft and corruption, hoarding and cheating are much easier to accomplish with money - even more so, with digital money! - than with turnips, shoes and roofing slates.
The charity, however, is far more efficient and effective without money. — Vera Mont

:clap:

Money is one of humankind's worst inventions. It corrupts the human psyche even more effectively than power - and it buys power, so the two most corrosive elements of society are in the same hands. — Vera Mont

Absafragginlootely!!!

That's not so bad, given what a foot-soldier's life is worth compared to an emperor's. — Vera Mont

At Waterloo, One butcher called 'Wellington' is reported to have commented that another butcher called 'Napoleon,' was not a gentleman. He is supposed to have stated, 'Oh, 'bonies,' hat is worth the lives of 30,000 soldiers, at least, BUT, he is NOT a gentleman!'
Another butcher at the Alamo called 'Santa Anna,' compared the death of his soldiers to the death of chickens.
I say, Wellington, Napoleon, Santa Anna and all such historical and current excuses for human beings, are not worth one fart of relief from any good peasant arse!

I am not just trying to be a nitpicking nudnick here Vera.
Trying to provide an exemplar of an existent that IS free from all notions of cost and consequence is not easy in an entropic universe, but I do think that there are such existents. — universeness

I suppose so. I don't see how that relates to human endeavors. We can't get or do anything without some expenditure of effort, calories and time.

I say, Wellington, Napoleon, Santa Anna and all such historical and current excuses for human beings, are not worth one fart of relief from any good peasant arse! — universeness

Agreed - so long as said peasant isn't whipping his dog and shagging his 10-year-old daughter. Or vice versa.

I don't see how that relates to human endeavors. We can't get or do anything without some expenditure of effort, calories and time. — Vera Mont

All human endeavours exist within the bounds of the physics of the universe.
Theism makes very little effort towards anything of significance in my opinion. for example, as a human endeavour, It assigns all ultimate responsibility, to fake gods. An excuse for humans to lay back and let life happen to them, instead of 'endeavouring,' to fight until death, to 'make things batter for everyone.'
We are mere bystanders and pawns in gods whims? They can f*** off with that shit!

The calories we extend can be replenished, for our entire lifespan.
Science is our best chance of increasing the time we have available to us, individually.
How we direct our efforts will dictate the individual legacy we leave behind.
This rationale has forced me to become a democratic socialist, a secular humanist, an atheist and an optimist to the very core of whatever the f*** I truly am, in respect of the universe that made living, conscious, self-aware, question asking creatures, exist.
The concept of my 'freedom' to 'become' what I am today, plays a very important role in my personal conception of who I am and what I can do. I don't accept that 'nothing is truly free,' I consider my ability to think anew, as 'truly free.'

Agreed - so long as said peasant isn't whipping his dog and shagging his 10-year-old daughter. Or vice versa. — Vera Mont

Yeah, as that would probably make such a peasant as bad as some priests, popes, generals, kings and messiah's.

Theism makes very little effort towards anything of significance in my opinion. — universeness

The fact that something is insignificant in one individual's opinion doesn't change the cost of that thing in terms of physics. Whether you light a candle as a petition to ST. Anthony or in order to study medicine, the same amount of wax is used; the same amount of heat is generated.
Eating celery stalks, I've heard, costs as much in expedinture of energy as it gains in nutritive calories - however, the gain in salts and fiber make celery a cost-effective food.

As to what the endeavours of theism have cost human being individually and collectively compared to its benefits, it's vastly, obscenely overpriced.

The calories we extend can be replenished, for our entire lifespan. — universeness

At the expense of other organic beings and their lifespan.

The concept of my 'freedom' to 'become' what I am today, plays a very important role in my personal conception of who I am and what I can do. I don't accept that 'nothing is truly free,' I consider my ability to think anew, as 'truly free.' — universeness

That's laudable - in all of your endeavors (though I have one or two issues with the Humanists).
But sure hasn't been a free lunch or a free ride, and however liberated your spirit and mind may be, your body is still in bondage to physics.

I think there's probably no better example than fashion. — Benj96

So true. Fashion does not care about waste or over abundance.

At the expense of other organic beings and their lifespan. — Vera Mont

Well, I'm not a veggie or a vegan yet but perhaps in the future, good meat substitutes will be found.
I have not tasted one I like as much as a real Tbone steak yet. I have often asked veggies what would happen to the cow, sheep, chicken, pig, etc global populations, if all humans stopped eating them.
It often ends with agreement, that there would be a lot fewer of them eventually, compared to their numbers, counted during any single day when we ate them. I assume those remaining, would exist as part of the wild fauna or become human pets or they would go extinct, as they were created and altered via human genetic selection.

however liberated your spirit and mind may be, your body is still in bondage to physics. — Vera Mont

I consider that a boundary/limitation, not a bondage.

Whether you light a candle as a petition to ST. Anthony or in order to study medicine, the same amount of wax is used; the same amount of heat is generated. — Vera Mont

Yeah, but St Anthony does not exist, but study of medicine, WILL save lives.
The wax energy was wasted in the former, and well spent in the latter.

Yeah, but St Anthony does not exist, but study of medicine, WILL save lives.
The wax energy was wasted in the former, and well spent in the latter. — universeness

Yes, that is your valuation, not the actual cost.
The wax doesn't care. Physics doesn't care. The universe doesn't care.

I consider that a boundary/limitation, not a bondage. — universeness

Reality, physics and the universe don't care how define things; if you don't eat, you die.

The wax doesn't care. Physics doesn't care. The universe doesn't care. — Vera Mont

Well said! You agree then, that that is what we can demonstrate. An ability that wax, physics and god seems unable to demonstrate. We are OF the universe and we can demonstrate that WE care!

Reality, physics and the universe don't care how define things; if you don't eat, you die. — Vera Mont

Yeah, I agree, I care enough about my existence to eat, because that maintains my ability to think and act and that can cause change for the better and for the worse. I hope I am part of the solutions and not part of the problems.

I care enough about my existence to eat, — universeness

It doesn't matter why; the fact is, as long as you are in and of the world, you are not, and cannot be free of its laws. Which as all I meant by no absolute freedom, and no free lunch.

I understand that, but as I stated in a previous post. I am formed via 13.8 billion years of very large variety in very large randomised combination, abiogenysys, evolution via natural selection and my parents having reproductive sex. I started as fundamental energy, released due to inflation/expansion of a very hot, dense concentration of energy. That fundamental energy has no known origin/cost or first cause/consequence, so I think your 'no absolute freedom' and 'no free lunch,' is flawed.

That fundamental energy has no known origin/cost or first cause/consequence, so I think your 'no absolute freedom' and 'no free lunch,' is flawed. — universeness

Right. I should have made clear - thought I had made clear - that I was referring to the transaction of such entities as exist in the present and can be said to eat lunch. (Not to mention that the ignorance of one species - has no known origin/cost - is not definitive proof.)

All such current existents trace back to that very hot, dense energy concentrate with no known cost or cause.

All such current existents trace back to that very hot, dense energy concentrate with no known cost or cause. — universeness

Okay, if you don't know about it, it doesn't exist, and if you don't approve of it, it has no value. In that case, all that exists or can exists, happens or can happen, is 100% gratis, in which case "free" in all its forms and permutations is meaningless terminology. Makes attempted communication kind of futile.

Okay, if you don't know about it, it doesn't exist, — Vera Mont

But we do know about the singularity, as a very hot, dense concentrate of energy, it's just that, that's ALL we currently know about it. It has very definite value, as the most credible placeholder for the source of the universe, that best matches our current physics of the universe.

In that case, all that exists or can exists, happens or can happen, is 100% gratis, in which case "free" in all its forms and permutations is meaningless terminology. Makes attempted communication kind of futile. — Vera Mont

Yes the origin is 100% gratis, no god agent/mind required, to expend any energy, in conjuring the universe, no 6 days of divine effort required. 'Free' is on the contrary, NOT therefore meaningless, as you suggest and communication is demonstrated constantly, including between us, and such is certainly not futile, in my opinion.

But we do know about the singularity, as a very hot, dense concentrate of energy, it's just that, that's ALL we currently know about it. It has very definite value, as the most credible placeholder for the source of the universe, that best matches our current physics of the universe. — universeness

I believe you. What I can't figure out is its relevance to the topic.

This was just a side track Vera, it does relate to human attraction to capitalism, in the sense that individuals choosing to behave the way they do, IS their responsibility and is based on their free choice. In my judgement, they cant escape the responsibility, by trying to scapegoat gods or exclaim that they are only acting in accordance with the natural rules of life, established and inherited from our days in the wilds. Capitalism is pernicious and remains a serious barrier to creating a 'civilised,' existence for our species. Those who maintain it, IN IT'S CURRENT FORM, cannot escape their responsibility for the current state of the human world.

In my judgement, they cant escape the responsibility, by trying to scapegoat gods or exclaim that they are only acting in accordance with the natural rules of life, established and inherited from our days in the wilds. — universeness

I wasn't trying to enable anyone to do any of that. I was only using language within the context of economics, not implicating 10-dimensional strings, the amygdala or Sango.

Capitalism is pernicious and remains a serious barrier to creating a 'civilised,' existence for our species. — universeness

As were monetarism, currency, inheritance, land ownership and the concept of chattels that gave eventual form to capitalism, which then demorphed into globalization

Those who maintain it, IN IT'S CURRENT FORM, cannot escape their responsibility for the current state of the human world. — universeness

Sure they can! They'll stick the rest of us with the check, as usual, and complain to management about the waitress they groped.

I wasn't trying to enable anyone to do any of that. I was only using language within the context of economics, not implicating 10-dimensional strings, the amygdala or Sango. — Vera Mont

It's all relevant Vera, Sango?

As were monetarism, currency, inheritance, land ownership and the concept of chattels that gave eventual form to capitalism, which then demorphed into globalization — Vera Mont

Yep.

Sure they can! They'll stick the rest of us with the check, as usual, and complain to management about the waitress they groped. — Vera Mont

Well they can keep trying to but their dilution continues. Would you show any deference or assign any respect to any individual, due to their personal excessive wealth, or influence or even to a title such as lord, queen, king, pastor, imam or pope?
I think such is actually becoming more and more toxic, to those who publicly brandish such.
Especially amongst Western youth, and perhaps even the female youth of Iran are demonstrating their hatred of such.
I think the billionaire is hated nowadays, as much as the kings of old.

BTW, the groped waitress nowadays, can start a 'me too' campaign, sue the b****** and the rich powerful perp, can have their reign of horror utterly smashed.

Sango? — universeness

Just another deity.

Well they can keep trying to but their dilution continues. — universeness

Au contraire, mon cher ami!

Would you show any deference or assign any respect to any individual, due to their personal excessive wealth, or influence or even to a title such as lord, queen, king, pastor, imam or pope? — universeness

What difference does that make, if I never even meet one? They have their self-contained, self-sufficient fortresses well above the eventual water line. Nevertheless, they control my access to the necessities of life, the tax on my beer and the carcinogen content of the air I breathe. By the time the young women of Saudi get hold of them we - even more of us - will be under 52 extra meters of storm-churned water.

Just another deity. — Vera Mont

In Yoruba mythology, Sango also known as Jakuta is perhaps the most popular Orisha; he is god of thunder and lightning and as well one of the most worshipped gods all over the world.

:rofl: I wonder if Thor will consult the lawyers of Asgard.

Au contraire, mon cher ami! — Vera Mont

Why would an ability to get more of what you already have an extreme excess of, prevent your ultimate demise? Does more evil make evil stronger or does it just increase the determination of good to overcome it? More money = more resentment and more counter activity, imo.
Don't be impressed by distractive shiny's Vera!

What difference does that make — Vera Mont

All the difference in the world!