That's like saying that policemen do not commit crimes. — unenlightened

I guess we're thinking of different meanings of "establishment.". Today's establishment is those college kids who wrestled with the police at Kent State. Clinton was very progressive in her youth and then became part of the new establishment. It's not about authority or policing anything. If anything, our establishment is "let the markets do what they want and defund aid to the inner cities.". That's what both Clinton and her husband ultimately stood for.

I know it's hard to think of Trump as the leader of the young rabble rousers, but he actually is. He was elected in part by refugees from the Democratic party. It didn't turn out well. He didn't strike a particularly heroic pose, but he did reveal a well of frustration with, and anger toward...

the establishment.

Likewise any revolutionary government comes to power in a coup and immediately becomes established or is overthrown by a counter coup by the disestablished establishment. — unenlightened

I'm sure Trump would have liked to establish his own ment. He wanted to be a dictator.

He was a perfect rendition of the demagogue who leads the fight against the establishment. — frank

His anti-establishment rhetoric helped to get him elected, but he is no "man of the people". He is every bit the kind of elite he rails against.

the establishment is neoliberal — frank

Trump is neoliberal.

The establishment’s base is resting their hopes on the word of a porn star, a lawyer who plead guilty for lying, and a political district attorney. This is their Michael Avenatti moment once again. You gotta love it.

The establishment’s base is resting their hopes on the word of a porn star, a lawyer who plead guilty for lying, and a political district attorney — NOS4A2

I'm pretty sure you know this isn't true. Why are you saying it?

What isn’t true?

[def]Inherited wealth = inherited power= the establishment.[/def]

What isn’t true? — NOS4A2

They aren't relying on Cohen's word. He's supposedly got a recording that proves Trump directed him to violate campaign finance laws.

You didn't know that?

The establishment’s base is resting their hopes on the word of a porn star, a lawyer who plead guilty for lying, and a political district attorney. — NOS4A2

And this is how the game of dissimulation is played. Trump and his followers object to legal investigations, but at the same time attempt to discredit statements made, the truth or falsity of which might be established through such investigations.

I don’t know nor care about the details. Establishment supporters have been making the case that Trump was a criminal for years, and let’s just say their record is abysmal. Can you tell me briefly what he did this time that has the foam increasing in and around the mouths of those who believe this shit?

Can you tell me briefly what he did this time that has the foam increasing in and around the mouths of those who believe this shit? — NOS4A2

I don’t know nor care about the details. — NOS4A2

:chin:

Is that a “no”?

Is that a “no”? — NOS4A2

He's going to be charged with violating federal campaign finance laws. You been out hunting moose or something?

I can't believe the guy who founded Trump University could be on the wrong side of the law.

Do you think the election was stolen?

So when there’s more violence, I guess Trump is off the hook again. Since he said “protest.” Nothing predictable about all this…

He's going to be charged with violating federal campaign finance laws. You been out hunting moose or something?

I remember when establishment supporters swore he was a treasonous, Russian asset, and now this is the hill they’re dying on. Campaign finance! Clinton and the DNC were fined for violating campaign finance laws just last year and the establishment wasn’t frothing at the mouth then. Pure deep-state dinner theater.

Cue the gaslighting MAGA assholes & FOX Noise suckers ... e.g.

I don’t know nor care about the details. — NOS4A2

:clap: :lol:

Pure deep-state dinner theater. — NOS4A2

Ever read what Al Capone was finally convicted of? Was it unjust to put Al Capone in jail?

Apparently a grand jury thinks there's enough evidence to indict. Have a little faith in the system, man.

Honestly, if the best counter the American left can come up with for Trump's populism is some classist sneering and petitions to "Have a little faith in the system" (the same one that just fucked women's reproductive rights) then they bloody well deserve another four years of him, another 20...

Christ. Have you lot got nothing better than this? Trump's not Joan of Arc, his arrest, incitement, rallying, corruption, or stupidity are all completely irrelevant. If it wasn't him it'd be some other figurehead. He's hardly got the intelligence to put his trousers on the right way round, let alone lead an insurgence.

The problem is not Trump, it's the sentiments which drive his support, and all the while you all play into the narrative that he's some uniquely corrupt figure who's removal and punishment are major concerns, the actual root problems which have given rise to populism in numerous countries just grow stronger.

Try walking into the home of an unemployed ex-industrual worker in Idaho, and telling him to "Have a little faith in the system", see if you get out with your nose unbroken, let alone any shift in his voting intentions.

Have a little faith in the system, man. — frank

That, sir, is a very third rate religion you're espousing, I'm afraid. Not because it has proven false, for religion does not deal in fact, but because it entirely lacks ambition.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't care if rich and powerful politicians get away with committing crimes?

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't care if rich and powerful politicians get away with committing crimes? — Michael

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

23 million people are on the brink of starvation right now across Africa and it's all the result of completely legal behaviour.

Politicians being able to hold shares in the industries they're supposed to be regulating, accepting lobbying payments from corporations they might otherwise legislate against, walking out of office into lucrative board jobs with the companies whose interests they just served...

All vastly more damaging than misappropriation of campaign funds. Being smart enough to get away with your chosen corruption isn't something to be impressed by.

The current government, the ones wielding the actual power right now, are driving the world toward more war, more famine, and more destitution... And the talk is all about this pointless micro-story about some stock-in-trade level corruption.

That, sir, is a very third rate religion you're espousing, I'm afraid. Not because it has proven false, for religion does not deal in fact, but because it entirely lacks ambition. — unenlightened

I don't think the world needs to be saved, if that's what you mean.

I don't think the world needs to be saved, — frank

I mean your faith is cute, but unappealing, whichever way you express it. The system that you ask us to have faith in is rather a meat grinder, as @Isaac details above.

I mean your faith is cute, — unenlightened

This is me. I need to visit the barber.

Ever read what Al Capone was finally convicted of? Was it unjust to put Al Capone in jail?

Capone, Hitler, Mussolini. Have you ever heard of a false analogy?

, where people get what they vote for, the voters would have to be told, ehh to be asked to choose better, yes? Where people don't (really) get a vote, whatever else would apply.

Anyway, hopefully the Frump will see justice and/or go away.

In other news:

Starbucks CEO Clearly Just Coming To Company Headquarters To Use Bathroom
^{— The Onion · Mar 15, 2023}

He clogged the toilet, stuffed some sugar packets into his pockets, and left. He took a minute to hover near the front, pretending to read a couple of documents, but his eyes were darting toward the bathroom door the whole time. — Alison Whitlock (Starbucks project manager)

Alison Whitlock [...] estimated that Schultz came into the Starbucks office approximately three to four times a week just to lock himself in the bathroom for 10 minutes and leave a terrible mess. — The Onion

All vastly more damaging than misappropriation of campaign funds. — Isaac

So because one crime is more damaging than another crime then we shouldn't care about the latter? I don't see why. People can care care about both crimes.

Anyway, hopefully the Frump will see justice and/or go away. — jorndoe

I don't see any cause to hope. If he goes away he'll be replaced by an identical figurehead with an identical agenda. Did you really think he was a one man show?

So because one crime is more damaging than another crime then we shouldn't care about the latter? I don't see why. People can care care about both crimes. — Michael

Oh I must have missed those other threads on the starvation in Africa, the corruption of share stocks, the effect of lobbying, the homelessness crisis, the opioid devastation, the union busting, modern slavery, refugee crises...

There's only one front page. It matters what's on it.